O/T Can-Am Relations

[Noel]

I was just wondering what everyones(particulary Americans) opinion was on the lack of support by Jean Chretiens(our dimwited Prime Minister)lack of support for the war in Iraq.As a Canadian I am ashamed of our governments spinlessness and hope that our brothers to the south don't judge us by the actions of our leaders.The reason I ask is we do alot of molds for American companies and have been getting less work lately.I hope it's just the ecconomy and not hard feeelings.Everyone I talk to up here supports the coalitions efforts and as I are ashamed of what our prime minister has done.

Anyway just wondering.

 

 

Noel

[Nominal]

My personal observation is that with everything going on we're not really thinking about you guys. It's not like Canada was the only country that didn't join in either. I think more Americans are concerned not about who didn't join the coalition, but about who supported Iraq and supplied U.S. intel to Iraq ( read France ). Also most of us realize Canada doesn't have the resources we do either and any participation by Canada would be more symbolic than anything else.

Besides you helped us out in the first persian gulf war if you would have sat that one out while everybody else participated it would have been viewed differently. Such a strong relationship will not be affected by one incident.

[BernieT]

Well said, Nominal - I agree.

[gcode]

I guess it depends on what part of Canada you are talking about. I read a news report about an

American youth leauge hockey team ( 10-12 year olds) being booed and threatened in Quebec during the war. The local police were concerned enough

to make them stay on their bus and gave them an escort out of the city. Canada will feel a backlash from such behaviour.

edit

A couple of months ago I spent a few days in Calgary on a consulting job. I've got to say Calagary is the friendlyist city I've ever visted.

The only rude people I ran into were the American Customs agents on my return flight

 

[ 04-28-2003, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: gcode ]

[Noel]

GCODE

I was defenatly not refering to Quebec.I consider them the same as France and alot of them don't realy concider themselve Canadian anyway.

 

Noel

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

That's fine that Canada did not join the coalition. They did not really speak out against it either. They just seemed to sit patiently to see what was going to happen. I have a feeling though that they did offer some support but were just quiet about it. Canada's interests seem to be very similar to our own (at least from the outside anyway), we just have more people.

 

My biggest peeve was the event that gcode speaks of. That's pathetic, booing kids, I mean come on. I guess in a province that is so heavily French influenced what could one expect.

 

I have no use for the French, they are a bunch of shameless cowards that support terrorists. We should have left let them remain under German control in WWII. It would have served them right, thanksless cowards. Plus we could have saved thousands upon thousands US Soliders lives that were lost in the Normandy Invasion.

 

[ 04-28-2003, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: James Meyette ]

[Bullines]

quote:

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I was defenatly not refering to Quebec.I consider them the same as France and alot of them don't realy concider themselve Canadian anyway.

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But a lot of them do consider themselves as Canadians and those who did the booing should not be held as representatives for the province of Quebec.

[P_Scott]

Noel,

 

It is my belief that France's prime minister acted out of a purely economical stance towards Iraq. He was more interested in getting discounts for oil barrels and selling military equipment to Iraq than in the human rights being violated by the regime which ruled over the oppresssed citizens of that country. My personal feeling is that it's high time Canada broke free from being the "protectorate" of a European nation, which is ruled by those who disregard human life in favor of economic or political gain. Regimes such as the one that used to be in Iraq will only continue to exist if there are those who support them or even don't actively oppose them. We all belong to ONE race and all bleed ONE color. Tribal Fuedalism and Totalitarian Dictatorships should be extinct in this age and every nation should be concentrating on feeding the hungry and freeing the oppressed. Then we should look to expanding our horizons and moving beyond our single-planet home. This will help insure that no one crazy individual will have the potential to destroy our home and make our ONE race extinct through weapons of mass destruction. JMHO Beyond that, have one on me.

 

[ 04-28-2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Peter Scott ]

[steve f]

Wow, I'm amazed at where this thread is heading.

 

I honestly feel sick when members of this forum start throwing around blanket statements regarding certain groups of people. I hope everyone here has the decency and intelligence to realize that Mastercam users from all walks of life surf this forum regularly for the purpose of expanding their ability to use Mcam better...not to be slandered because of circumstances, past or present, that they have no control over. I don't think slinging mud will further the usefullness of this forum.

 

Steve

[Nominal]

quote:

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I have no use for the French, they are a bunch of shameless cowards that support terrorists. We should have left let them remain under German control in WWII. It would have served them right, thanksless cowards.

---

C'mon Jim don't hold back

 

But seriously folks, it's dangerous to group together a race of people, and say these people are like this or that depending upon the actions of thier government. Governments don't nessesarily represent the will or opinions of thier people ( I can't think of any ). I for one wouldn't want the world to judge me by the actions of my government.

[Mark Lovelace]

Noel,

 

Similar to James, I appreciate that Canada was able to enunciate a viewpoint that was distictly different from the US without it escalating into a divisive standoff. Nations, as with individuals, should be able to disagree on a course of action without having to trash each other. Belligerance in lieu of foreign policy is not an acceptable option.

 

Debate and the airing of disagreements are what help our world to evolve and improve. However, when any nation, religion, or ethnic group starts insisting that the whole world should think like they do, you can bet that violence will soon follow. It's this "You're either with us or you're against us" mentality, from any sector, that is the biggest threat to world security.

 

So thank you to Canada for showing that true friends value each other's opinions, especially when they differ.

 

[ 04-28-2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Mark Lovelace ]

[Mgrenier]

quote:

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I was defenatly not refering to Quebec.I consider them the same as France and alot of them don't realy concider themselve Canadian anyway.

---

quote:

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My biggest peeve was the event that gcode speaks of. That's pathetic, booing kids, I mean come on. I guess in a province that is so heavily French influenced what could one expect.

---

That does it, you guys have me angry enough that I just have to reply. I am a french canadian living in Quebec and I think that these allegations are surprisingly shocking.

 

Here, we hear a lot about truckers that have their trucks vandalized(SP?), must face a lot of verbal abuse and even some time some physical abuse when they cross the border. But we are not here saying that all Americans hate us. We fully understand that the bad moves of a few people within a group can affect the image of the rest of the same group.

 

The bottom line here is: don't take one particular incident that was caused by a small groups of ignorants and apply this behavior to the rest of their co-citizens.

 

If you guys can not make that difference then I pitty you guys.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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That does it, you guys have me angry enough that I just have to reply. I am a french canadian living in Quebec and I think that these allegations are surprisingly shocking.

---

Being of French Ancestry, gives me license to criticize it's Government(s) ideals, it's citizens ideals and the foolishness they continue to espouse. Perhaps leving them under German rule was a bit harsh but you what, when a bunch of KIDS get together to play a GAME and can't do so or must be under security survelleince because of imbeciles... it does speak volumes about a culture that allows that to happen.

[McRae]

Martin,

 

I offer my appologies on behalf of the posts that offend. I hope our fellow members temper their keystrokes and remember there are real people at the other end of web...

 

Tolerance just isn't for making parts fit togeather, it also allows us to live in peace.

[Bullines]

quote:

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when a bunch of KIDS get together to play a GAME and can't do so or must be under security survelleince because of imbeciles... it does speak volumes about a culture that allows that to happen.

---

Sorry, James. My AAA bantam team got booed when we played a team from Marquette, MI (we won 6-0 ). By that logic, we could say that Michiganders/Americans don't like losing to Ontario-ans/Canadians. But we took it as a bunch of jealous idiots/fans of the Marquette team and not citizens of Michigan or the US.

 

The fanatical K-becers give the otherwise lovely province of Quebec a bad name. Believe it or not, it is a very nice and non-hostile province I encourage everyone to visit it at some point and I'm not saying that because half of my family is from Quebec

 

quote:

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Tolerance just isn't for making parts fit togeather, it also allows us to live in peace.

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Agreed.

[Philcott]

James,

 

quote:

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Being of French Ancestry, gives me license to criticize it's Government(s) ideals,

---

Not to stir the $#!t pot but I don't understand your reasoning with this statement.

 

In some of the previous "heated" topics I seem to recall a number of "people of American ancestry" having their patriotism challenged when they used their "license to criticize" to air their views of their governments actions.

 

I have heard many people say I'm "fill in the blank" so it's ok if I tell "fill in the blank" jokes. Generalized statements can often hurt large numbers of people.

 

What happened at that hockey game was shameful but if you ever have a chance to go to Quebec you will see there are around 8,000,000 people living there. Most of which were not at that game.

 

Phil

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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Sorry, James. My AAA bantam team got booed when we played a team from Marquette, MI (we won 6-0 ). By that logic, we could say that Michiganders/Americans don't like losing to Ontario-ans/Canadians. But we took it as a bunch of jealous idiots/fans of the Marquette team and not citizens of Michigan or the US.

---

That's pathetic! To drag poiltics into KIDS sporting events is absolutely positively shameful. Loosers!

 

quote:

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...but if you ever have a chance to go to Quebec you will see there are around 8,000,000 people living there.

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Are these the same 8,000,000 or so people that want to secede from Canada and form their own seperate French Colony or State or whatever it is they want to call it?

[McRae]

James

At last count there were only (by extrapolation from a referendum) 3,920,000 that would like to succede (49%). As far as the latest provincial election results go, this attitude seems to have faded as well as that Bloc government was defeated.

 

I wonder if the quebecers view all californians as pot smoking valley surfer dudes driving in beat up Jeeps?

[Scott Bond]

Party on Andrew.

[pactec]

I don't know folks...

 

Nationalism, or too much of it, meaning fanatical behavior never did nobody no good(tripple negative goes back to single). My parents moved here because a person is free to do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. They can also say what they want. They can meet with who they want. They can express their religion and traditions as well.Where would YOU like to live? I thought so, a place where you're free .

If you've seen any of the NHL playoffs, at Canuck games the singer doing the anthems always holds the mic. up so the crowd can sing a portion of the Canadian song. I would like to see them do that for both anthems, then youl'd see some solidarity.

People using a game to express anything but the celebration of the game itself are ignorant bufoons and unfortunately free to express themselves as much as anyone else. What gets me is that these jerks are not beat down by the rest of the crowd. I guess nice people there to enjoy a game can't be bothered with ignoramuses, game on.

Remember, this discussion would not be going on in much of the world. It's a good thing that those places are becoming fewer and fewer and there are people working on that, in whatever capacity. Still a long way to go, but we're getting there.

 

Take care everyone...

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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I wonder if the quebecers view all californians as pot smoking valley surfer dudes driving in beat up Jeeps?

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That would be pot smoking valley surfer dudes driving beat up VW's Andrew. Get it right.

 

Oh, one more thing. Good point Damir, good point. I think sometimes we (myself included) loose sight of what's really important - the big picture.

 

[ 04-28-2003, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: James Meyette ]

[Brendan P]

Umm...

Jack,please save this thread!

[Rekd™]

quote:

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I wonder if the quebecers view all californians as pot smoking valley surfer dudes driving in beat up Jeeps

---

My Jeep's not beat up.

 

I was born in America from German, Irish, and French Canadian parentage. I can honestly say I have not met 1 Frenchman that I actually liked. But I will not judge all of them because of it.

 

When I found out the French were not only opposing the coalition, but were actually supplying terrorists with funds and ammunitions, I almost fell over. Now my feelings have changed. Not for an individual, but for a Government.

 

If France continues to support terrorists, they need to be delt with just like any other country.

 

'Rekd teh "Don't Tread On Me"

 

-edit-

BTW, in MY OWN OPINION, Any country that supplies suppliers of terrorists is guilty of terrorism, *cough*, France, *cough*

 

[ 04-28-2003, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: Rekd ]

[Mark Lovelace]

I'm not sure where all of these allegations about France supplying terrorists are coming from. Did I miss something in the news lately? Of course they have in the past sold weapons to Iraq, but so has the US. Remember that Donald Rumsfeld is the one who made the deal to supply Iraq with missile components, military electronics, and chemical and biological weapons stock, during the Reagan administration, and told Saddam that the US would look the other way if Iraq used them against Iran (December, 1983.) I'd say that pretty much negates his right to act indignant towards anything Saddam did. The US is certainly as guilty as any other country of supplying weapons to unsavory regimes.

 

And if France's motives are checkered by profiteering, then again they stand right alongside the US in that respect. Bechtel and Haliburton were both recently given no-bid contracts in Iraq where they are GUARANTEED to make a profit! Keep in mind, too, that Dick Cheney still draws a paycheck from Haliburton. Fully a third of the members of Richard Perle’s Defense Policy Board are executives or lobbyists for defense contractors that raked in over $76 billion dollars in US Government contracts in 2001-02.

 

I am not trying to trash the Bush administration here. I am not so blind as to believe that this is anything new to the way our government operates. Nor am I being an apologist for France. What I am trying to point out is that France and the US in fact operate under the same logic, and that is that profit is king. You shouldn’t point your finger at one unless you’re willing to take an unflinching look at the other. We shouldn’t be so naïve so as to believe that this war had anything to do with liberating Iraq or eliminating weapons of mass destruction. War is business, plain and simple. In fact, it’s the biggest business of them all.

 

Okay, that’s the end of my of left-wing, liberal, commie-pinko, yellow-bellied, Saddam-loving, anti-American, surrender-monkey, ‘why-don’t-you-move-to-Iraq? hippie, peacenik, war-protesting, freedom-hating, welfare-living, tree-hugging, pot-smoking, french-fry-eating, Dixie-Chicks-listening, NEA supporting, Volvo-driving, Susan-Sarandon-loving, ‘West-Wing’-watching, tax-and-spending, Democrat-voting, liberal (did I say that already?) post. I think I got all the epithets you will hurl at me, but if you can come up with some others, fire away.

[CAM-mando]

*Biting Tongue till I cant take it anymore*

 

Where oh where to start ...

How bout here ....

 

Nobody is squeakey clean in all of this.

 

Regarding the US supplying Arms to Iraq ... Yes ... THey were fighting IRAN who at the time was considered a bigger enemy and NOT while under UN sanctions that WE voted for.

 

Regarding Canada ... well if I werent an American, and If I didnt choose to beleive that Iraq has terrorist ties and I didnt choose to beleive they continued to have bio/chem weapons programs while forbidden to do so under UN resolution (aka cease fire agreement) and If I didnt have a formidable military, I probably would have sat on the sidelines also. I would probably have given a little more consideration to the fact that maintaining a US alliance is in My countries best intrest, but whatever.

 

Regarding the dopes booing the kids ... does it really need a comment. Im sure we could find some yahoos here in the US to boo some French Soccer team ... so I chalk it up to there are idiots every where. Any time kids pay the price for the decisions of adults it is sad. This includes the innocent kids who are now parentless or fatherless or wounded or dead as a result of the war in Iraq.

 

The French and Russian (Government or Companies) had their hand in the cookie jar and because teh US stayed its course they got caught. There was no talking sense to the french, they werent going to back off of there position. They had to have known how things would play out but apparently they were subscribing to Saddams school of thought that world public opinion would create a quagmire for us before the military plan would conclude. Regardless of right or wrong, the french (Government) was pretty dumb. So now they will do some damage control and try to get in on the "spoils of war".

 

As for the Bush administration. I was not a big "fan" of GW but he got my vote because (A) I believed he would surround himself with competent advisors and cabinet members and ( Gore terrifies me. I cant imagine Gore in a post 9/11 world.

 

As for Mark Lovelace - (to quote Charlie Daniels) He even Voted for Mcgovern for president.

 

Just wanted to add that to your list of self proclamations Mark.

 

Any way ... as far as the canadians go. Here in Philly I go to a Flyers Game every now and again and we get to Boooooooooo lots of canadians. Doesnt even matter what team theyre on

 

Good Day - 'Eh