O/T Robin Williams plan

[Charles Davis]

A-Ron deserves and A+ in properly pointing out the hypocrisy of the extreme left wing.

 

Clinton did the easy stuff that made him look good and didn't risk his political butt.

 

W is doing the hard stuff that opens him to the vitriol of the extreme left, communists, and other wackos, and he did it at extreme political risk to himself. That's called courage.

 

And you can say the same about Tony Blair (England), John Howard (Australia), Jose Maria Anzar (Spain), Aleksander Kwasniewski (Poland), and many other coalition partners. Now these are leaders.

 

As far as the axis of weasels, especially Jacques Chirac who opposed to war to cover up his own criminal complicity with Sadam and protect his own narrow interest.

 

What a shame. I had been planning to visit Louvre in Paris for years. I'm a lot more interested now in Spain or Austrialia. No more Avian for me!

[Mark Lovelace]

At least “W” wasn’t over in England smoking dope

 

Nah, he was too busy drinkin' and drivin' and doin' blow. And, coincidentally, dodging the draft.

 

Are you guys still hung up on the blow-job thing? Clinton lied about having an affair, yes. And lying to the American people is an inexcusable act for the President, right?

 

Over the weekend comes word from a senior White House official that the Bush administration knew Saddam had no more weapons of mass destruction. So Bush lied to the American people too, right? And not just about a little blowjob, but about an issue which was, at the time, the sole, justifying cause for war.

 

Knowing how you hate lying, I am eagerly awaiting your condemnation of the Bush adminstration on this point. And I'm sure that you will blast Bush on this point, because I know you wouldn't want to be hypocritical. Right?

 

Unless, of course, Bush was simply wrong. Boy, that would make me feel a lot better, if the deaths of thousands of Iraqi civilians and 125 US soldiers was all due to his incompetence. No hard feelings to the parents of the soldiers that died.

 

I am not a communist, liberal extremist, any more than any of you are facist right-wing extremists. I believe that there is such a thing as a just war, but I do not believe that this one rises to that level. If the only way the President can get the people and his 'allies' behind him is by lies, deception, manipulation, threats, and payoffs, then it is going to be hard to convince me that the cause is just.

 

To be a just war, the outcome must be better than the status quo. So far, Iraq has a long way to go. It may get there, and I hope that it does, but with Islamic Fundamentalism on the rise amidst the rubble, I have my doubts.

 

[ 05-05-2003, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Mark Lovelace ]

[A-ron1286490684]

No, blowjobs are GREAT! Too bad for Bill it's on the wrong side of the buffet for old carpet baggin' Hillary to take a bite out of.

 

Actually it was the legal free ride as 117 people sat in federal prison for the same offense, (lying to a grand jury), that motivates me. Well, that and selling missle guidance technology to the Chinese Communists that financed his campaign. And maybe the 8 million dollar advance for his memoirs that he couldn't remember under oath.

 

And "just" wars... -Bosnia, Kosovo were they just? Lets see, there it is again, Democrat bombs good - Republican bombs bad!

 

And who is this phantom WhiteHouse senior source?

 

[ 05-05-2003, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: A-ron ]

[puzzlemaker]

Not that I don't believe what I am reading here,but this doesn't sound like something Robin Williams would say.Where did this come from?Also I did a little homework, and Robin Williams has a degree in Political Science, and studied acting at Juilliard.

[Mark Lovelace]

A-ron,

 

Both the Financial Times in London and the Sunday Herald in Scotland picked up this story, and others have alluded to it. In fact, I'm hearing something about it on NPR as I write this. Generally, a 'senior White House official' means an intentional leak, so that by the time the story is officially made public, it's already old news. It's a way of 'acclimating' the public to bad news, and undermining the story's impact. My guess is that there will be some kind of a more official word on the non-existence of WMDs within the next week, though likely clouded in spin. Probably Friday (bad news dumping day).

 

BTW, I know a lot of Democrats, none of who truly supported the Bosnia actions. Admittedly, neither did they vocally oppose it, mostly because of the UN involvement and the fact that the US didn't start that war. The two are really apples and oranges.

 

As for Robin Williams, I think he has no more or less authority about the war than Toby Keith, Kid Rock, or other supporters do. They all have just as much right to their opinions as any of us do. They just have a bigger forum, and they use it just as I'm sure any of us would.

[Charles Davis]

I could be wrong, but I don't think the UN approved of the action on Bosnia.

 

And you can't just brush off they hypocriy with, "Admittedly, neither did they vocally oppose it..."

 

That's like saying, "Yeah, OJ killed her, but...."

 

You can say whatever you want to say, blow all the smoke you want, bring up whatever obscure comment (true, untrue, out of context, a joke, who knows?).

 

But the bottom line is anyone against the liberation of Iraq war is simply on the wrong side of history and morality, and is, by neglect, coddling a horrific butcher and damning the Iraqi people to further unspeakable crimes and pain.

 

You have the right to speak your mind, but I have the right to tell you exactly why I think you are wrong. I'd just encourage you to look at some of those old Hitler videos (with English translatio), and pics of the Holocaust, so you will learn to recognize evil when you see it. I don't know how to help you develop the nads to take action against evil. I guess that's why we have great leaders and a professional military.

[Jack Mitchell]

quote:

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I guess that's why we have great leaders and a professional military.

---

The US economy is in the toilet "40 year low as suggested by Cnn this morning" In-fact the Canadian dollar hit a five year high on Friday.

 

Let me see - 80 billion for the war to date, 40 billion yearly to the Cia (the kindly innocent boyscout's of America). Who is going to pay for all of this democracy?; I will hedge a bet that the Canadian economy builds to a value higher than the US dollar in the next two years, the funny thing is that Canada is a barbers tip at best with a whopping 10% of America's population and productivity.

 

Like it or not, Lovelace has a valid point to his argument and I tend to agree with most of his statements I don't view his opinion as blowing smoke in any way whatsoever.

 

The remark about a profesional military is hardly worth the mention since it is arguably the finest in the world and certainly the most well equipped in history, but hey - you're paying for it.

 

The planted Afganistan leader is not recognized as it's leader by it's people on this day, for if he was then he might well be a corpse tomorrow, which is what he will be anyways - it's just that nobody in his country acknowledges his rule and yet simply tolerate him since he is a key to the much needed cash infusion coming out of America, the moment his usefullness concludes is the moment he gets the Columbian necktie treatment - and you can take that to the bank!

 

To pursue the domination of other countries for defense and regime change does not guarantee our freedoms or sense of well being for the world holds contempt for such mediocrity. The long haul is heading towards the bankruptcy of an American institution which is the United States of America itself - who is going to pay for all of this? (WE ARE) through an elevated tax system that is well hidden and realized just as it is in Canada; oddly enough, Canada is the only G7 nation that has shown any prosper in the last year - go figuer

 

What does this freedom of oppression cost in Iraq? - about 60 thousand jobs a month and counting in the United States, but what would I know about truth and ecomomics?

 

quote:

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And who is this phantom WhiteHouse senior source?

---

On the condition of anomomity - yes it's heard twenty times a day on virtually every news broadcast. you tell me who this senior is!

 

Regards, Jack

 

[ 05-05-2003, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Jack Mitchell ]

[CAM-mando]

Jack ... once again you make such an eloquent case. Time will tell to some extent. I guess we will be able to look back in a few years and sort through the spin and revisionist history and figure out whether this was the right thing to do or not. And we can monday morining QB it to death.

 

I supported the War BUT If it becomes clear there was prior knowlege of no WMD in Iraq or evedince of terrorist ties were fabricated or overblown, I will say "I WAS WRONG" The action against Saddam's regime was enabled by his continuous breach of UN sanction, but only justified by the aforementioned threats. Should it turn out that I was duped by the pres and his cronies, then I may become a "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" theorist for the rest of my life.

 

The jury is still out on that however so I will procede witth the assumption that the war was neccessary IMHO.

 

That being said I feel compelled to comment on a few points.

 

quote:

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The US economy is in the toilet "40 year low as suggested by Cnn this morning" In-fact the Canadian dollar hit a five year high on Friday.

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CNN's recent credibility not withstanding ...

 

Did this happen in the last month ? Two Months ? Year ? Are you suggesting that the War caused the current economic condition ? or that under these circumstances we coulldnt afford the war ?

 

If it is former, I dont think the correlation can really be made.

 

If the latter, I have to ask myself if the war was neccessary (and that is debatable, as I said IMHO it was) how much am I willing to pay ? I can tell you that if GW sat down and explained the situation to me in my kitchen I would have wrote my $1500 check on the spot and said get it done.

 

The current economy is much the result of the "REALization" of the inflated stock market, the uncooking of corporate books and a public that has indebted themselves with creditcard debt to the point that they will never pay it off and are finally realizng that they cant buy anything. And of course add to this the "Unfair trade agreements" What does that mean ? Well it may be that we had it coming in certain industries interms of loosing our shirts to overseas competition, but the fact remains that the overseas competition is not bound by the same regulations as we are here in the US. The playing field does still need to be leveled in this area.

 

quote:

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The long haul is heading towards the bankruptcy of an American institution which is the United States of America itself - who is going to pay for all of this?

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The cost of War are difficult to quantify because much of it is recycled money. If Im not mistaken, I believe the largest cost of the first gulf war was FUEL. Much of which was provided by the Saudis. The cost of hardware actually creates internal manufacturing demand. The salaries already were in place excepting the combat pay.

 

The post war cost are another story and I have to beleive that we will work aout means of re-imbursement either dirrectly, by oil guarentees or something.

 

In the spirit of ofering solutions here are my 10+1 keys to restoration of economic health:

 

1. Maintain the minimal required presence in Iraq and enlist the services of those nations who are willing to submit to our dirrection.

2. Establish reimbursement means within the first 3 months of the new FORMAL Iraqi Government.

3. Overhaul the laws governing credit and bankruptcy.

4. Collect some significant portion of corporate income tax via SALES tax. Most big corporations today are not really American. They are "Multinational". Their US operations just seem to break even while the wealth is kept offshore. You want to sell cars here ? You pay tax here. GM, FORD, TOYOTA doesnt matter.

5. TERM Limits.

6. Require that all imported goods are manufactured under the same regulations as in the US Child labor, humanitarian conditions, EPA regs. Perhaps Hans Blix's inspectors could be assigned the task of verifying compliance since they are currently out of work.

7. Increase small buisness funding programs.

8. Cease financing of the UN beyond that required for US participation.

9. Incorporate more buy american clauses into Government contracts. US dollars stay here.

10. Continue to protect foreign oil interests until such time as alternative sources of fuel, power generation, cutting fluids and waylube are widely implemented.

 

And Lastly one of the following...

 

11. a) Mandate Graphical Post Processor Builders For All Cam Software.

 

11. Or better yet for once and for all standardize the darned controls. I think lines, arcs and spindle twirls are slightly less complex than what web browsers seem to be able to pull off.

 

Humbly Yours

Dave

the "chicken in every pot"

 

[ 05-06-2003, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: CAMmando ]

[Wally]

Even if we don`t find WMD I think just for the fact of all the mass murders that Sadam committed amoung his own people gave us justification for what we are doing. Whether we like it or not, this country does police the world. But, I think we should charge for the protection. Other wise, they`re on their own.

I served 3 tours in Vietnam, USMC-Recon, and my world was **** when I returned home. It started as soon as I stepped off the plane in Calif. People throwing crap and yelling obscene remarks. But that`s OK. I feel a real sence of relief as far as this war and our soldiers. Most people are joined to see them as atleast doing a job if not honorable people and even heroes. The same with 9/11. Don`t you have a differant outlook on the fire fighters than before? I have a daughter over there flying the CH-47 and a son there in special forces. They are heroes to me.

It`s just sad that we have to experience tragidy to learn the appreciation of what we do have.

Right or wrong, I stand by our Commander and Chief. We have our problems but it`s still the best dam country in the world.

[A-ron1286490684]

The Canadian dollar may be on the rise but the last time I was in B.C. a six-pack of beer cost me twelve dollars as compared to about four or five here in the U.S.. I may be wrong but I think a big chunk of that was a tax. Didn't get to experience any other taxation issues but I'd heard they were extreme up there -eh

 

These are the important issues that directly affect all the enemies of Bill W.

[Mark Lovelace]

Wally,

 

All of the stories I've heard of soldiers returning from Vietnam to get spat upon and called 'baby-killers' just make me sick, and I'm sorry you had that kind of experience. Any one who is capable of expressing that kind of hatred doesn't deserve to call themselves a 'peace' activist.

 

I hope that you and others here can recognize that not all those who opposed this war can be lumped into one bin. I will be the first to admit that there are a lot of idiots out there with pre-existing agendas who see this war as just another reason to clog up the streets. But there are others, like myself, who simply feel that the case for war was not compelling enough, and that it was still possible to resolve the situation through diplomacy or other means.

 

I absolutely agree that the US is the best country on the Earth, and our ability to constructively share our differing opinions is one of the things that makes it so. But people on either side of a debate who wield their opinions in a destructive manner do a disservice to their cause, whatever it may be, and belittle freedom of speech.

[Charles Davis]

Funny that the people who wanted to give the UN weapons inspectors years to find WMD are now bitching because we haven't found masses of them in a few weeks.

 

The shameless hypocisy of the liberals is boundless.

 

BTW:

Not that money should be a deciding factor (we didn't back down from WWII though I believe that war costs several trillion in inflation adjusted dollars).

 

But, the last estimate I heard was the war cost 20B, and we are a multi-trillion dollar economy.

[McRae]

quote:

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Funny that the people who wanted to give the UN weapons inspectors years to find WMD are now bitching because we haven't found masses of them in a few weeks.

 

The shameless hypocisy of the liberals is boundless.

---

How is this hypocritical? From the reports and the justification case for the war indicated that these weapons were hanging from trees ripe for the taking by any terrorist group. The finding of these weapons should have been a simple matter with the capture of the Iraqi Leaders. How do you think a cop that shoots a 14 year old kid for pointing a gun his way and then discovers it was a squirter feels? The librals are the protectors of the national concience and for the most part - are the ones that will document history.

 

quote:

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The Canadian dollar may be on the rise but the last time I was in B.C. a six-pack of beer cost me twelve dollars as compared to about four or five here in the U.S.. I may be wrong but I think a big chunk of that was a tax. Didn't get to experience any other taxation issues but I'd heard they were extreme up there -eh

---

You pay for quality product... The market will bear the higher cost for a pint - and having never drank the marginal stuff from one of your corner stores, I can attest that a pint of Guiness cost me CDN$6.00 and when I had a pint at the Pub in Austin Texas - that stuff cost me the same - only in $US. Lots of things are the same cost - only in devalued currency, look at computers and clothing, Food in the grocery store. Next time you get a property tax bill, open it up and then let me know how much you are paying for that! I'll bet 12 Tim Horton Apple Fritters that mine - even after converting the currency - is about half. For the most part we are better off than you are - you just don't know it because you live in the best country in the world! (Do you have a passport and have you ever been to France or Germany? Those places will prove the point.)

 

From the Great White North and according to the world, the second best place on the planet to live - Sweeden comes first,

 

Andrew

 

[ 05-06-2003, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Andrew McRae ]

[A-ron1286490684]

Maybe I was getting the "tourist" rates. I was more referring to the overly inflated sales tax and, like I've posted before, I will not settle for "corner store" beer! Although with Guiness you could pretty much pour a 1/4 cup of molasses in a budweiser and get the same effect. But really, it doesn't get much better for me than a hoppy pale or amber ale.

 

Now theres a topic I think we could all agree on - cheap beer sucks!

[McRae]

quote:

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Now theres a topic I think we could all agree on - cheap beer sucks!

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Here - Here , Here - Here

(***loud parlimentary thumping as I pound the top of my table***)

[ssibiski]

quote:

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Now theres a topic I think we could all agree on - cheap beer sucks!

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This I whole heartedly agree with.

 

Steve Sibiski

[MACHINEMASTERG]

half the people out there drink cheap beer since anhieser bush has a 50% share of the usa beer market yuck

[Rekd™]

Ack! I hate AB beer. Gives me a headache. I much prefer Solera 1873 Bacardi & Coke.

 

'Rekd teh Inebriated

[MACHINEMASTERG]

captain morgan and coke with a lemon cheers

[McRae]

quote:

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captain morgan and coke with a lemon

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I sure hope your liver forgives you...

[MACHINEMASTERG]

my first one didnt appreciate me but this new one is working out just fine... thank you

[Mark Lovelace]

If price were the only consideration in beer, we'd all be drinking Steel Reserve: 40oz of 8.7% in an aluminum can for 99 cents. One can is the equivalent of 5 1/2 bottles of decent pale ale.

 

Personally, I'd rather have a pint of Scotch Porter than just about anything. Except on a hot day, when pale, amber or red is in order.

 

Gosh, this is heartening seeing how much joy and unity beer can bring to this otherwise fractuous debate.

[Scott Bond]

With Rum & Coke my contribution to

programming is staggering.

[Jack Mitchell]

As usual Andrew saves the day

 

Seriously Andrew, we will have to embark on a tasting binge - I hear there is an excellent British style pub in Burlington (Canada) What do you say we try ALL the beverages on a Saturday in about a weeks time?

 

quote:

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the "chicken in every pot"

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I just knew you could pull this one off, good luck with the ladies

 

Regards, Jack

 

[ 05-06-2003, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Jack Mitchell ]

[A-ron1286490684]

Funny, I'd always pictured Rekd sipping "Tranya" with the Clint Howard manchild...