VMC advice

[gcode]

A shop I do contract work for has 2 old Haas VMC's

a VF1 and VF4. Both are getting old ( 11.5 and 13.5 years old)

They WILL NOT run Mastercams high speed toolpaths efficiently and repair bills

are starting to get painful.

 

They are looking at the Haas SS line. I've read on the fourm that they are not

accurate machines.

Its my understanding that a long pitch leadscrew = very fast rapids but poor accuracy and loss of cutting torque

I'm looking for replacement suggestions

[Dave.L]

Tom,

 

It sounds like price is a factor here....Mazak would be a great option. About 5 years ago I priced a Haas against our Mazak and the Haas was actually more money for a far less machine.

 

Mori would be my #1 suggestion but Mori verticals (not Dura's, but NV's) are like 2X the cost of most verticals so that would need a lot of justification.

[Newbeeee™]

FWIW we run chevalier machines (fanuc 0imc). 24T, 10K spindles, thru tool coolant.

We rout at 4-5 metre feedrates quite regularly with G05.1 and they did take a little setting up (parameter wise).

But we have 3 of them and they out perform the old hitachi seiki vs50's were we used to work.

They are excellent value for money and I'd recommend them without hesitation.

[Robert Ouellette]

have a look at the haas vm- series. we just got one in october and they are fast but still accurate. not like the ss. they have fine pitch lead screws but fast servos. we have a vm-6. 64" x 32" x 30" travel with 12k spindle. thrue tool coolant 1000psi. ethernet, more memmory. hard drive. the works. for the money it is great for us.

[workmantm]

Thanks for the suggestions. I was looking at the Specs for the Mori NV's this morning to reference what we would want to start looking at. We have a VF1 and a VF4, both well over a decade old. They run like champs for what they are capable of doing, but that still limits what we can manage to produce cycle time wise.

 

We are open to potentially going to a full 5 axis machine if I can identify enough of a part mix and can justify the expense to the owner. He is happy with Haas for price and the performance based on that price, but if I can argue that another machine will give us a better value then I might just win the war over machines when it is time to shop and buy a new Mill.

 

I'll be adding the Mazak's to my growing research list. Currently we run parts either in a vise or on the Haas 5C Indexer. Only one is getting run on a rotary table currently. Through tool Coolant is something I am trying to sell on the mills to allow me to run more efficiently and extend tool life on some of the newer generation tools that handle high speed machining paths.

 

Gcode has never steered me wrong and I trust the issues with the SS are ones that will show themselves once we try to push the machine.

 

Another factor in my sales pitch is going to have to be location of service and support staff for the Machine. We are located in North Orange County and the HFO is overly convenient as far as location to us is concerned. Is there anyone local that has either a Mazak or Mori that when we are close to buying I can bring the owner and manufacturing manager in to observe how it runs? I think a practical real world demo of the machines will ultimately be what it takes prove that changing brands is what we need to do.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Mori is in Cypress (Ellison their dealer is in Santa Fe Springs), Mazak is in Gardena, and Haas is in Oxballs (THeir dealers are in Anaheim and Torrance).

 

Something to look at as well are Toyoda VMC's. They reasonably priced, full featured, and have been very reliable. Their dealer is Selway in Buena Park.

[gcode]

One issue that argues against changing brands is legacy file compatibility.

We have a half dozen different brands/controls at my day job and gcode compatibility can become a real nightmare

You have 13 years worth of Haas flavored gcode. It is 99% compatible with standard

Fanuc controls. Off hand the only things that would cause problems would be the

G13 hole milling cycle, the G187 look ahead settings and an occasional Haas deep hole drilling cycle.

Your gcode should run on Mori's and Toyodas with little or no editing.

Running Haas gcode in a Mazak..??? I have no idea.. That issue alone may be enough to

take Mazak off the table.

[Dave.L]

Through tool Coolant is something I am trying to sell on the mills to allow me to run more efficiently and extend tool life on some of the newer generation tools that handle high speed machining paths.

 

Thru coolant is great, BUT, be sure you get a good chip conveyor / coolant tank system with serious filters or you will have blocked lines all day long (escpecially if you run aluminum).

 

Running Haas gcode in a Mazak..??? I have no idea.. That issue alone may be enough to

take Mazak off the table.

 

Tom,

 

I imagine some of the code is different but from my experience the code is pretty much the same as fanuc. Again, I am sure some changes will be needed. If you need a sample program, email me and I will send you one. I can send you a MC file, machine def's and post and you can look for yourself. Joe can probably help you too.

[Joe788]

The Haas G-code will run in the Mazak the same as it will run in a Fanuc control. You'll have to s*&tcan the G13s and change the high speed machining codes, and Haas deep hole drilling cycles.

 

Realistically, if the OLD Haas machines they have right now are doing the job, they will be absolutely thrilled with a new Haas machine, even an SS machine. I've got a few friends with VF3SS and VF2SS machines, and they love them.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Actually, my customers don't have to can the G12/G13 cycles. I have macros that do exactly that.

[Joe788]

Actually, my customers don't have to can the G12/G13 cycles. I have macros that do exactly that.

 

True that. At the very least, they have to change them to an M code or a G65P.... though, no?

[#Rekd™]

Hey Tom,

 

Also check out Doosan they are heavy duty. Look at the overall weight of the machines you are looking at to give you an idea of how robust they are.

 

Good luck.

 

John

[Redfire427]

Take a look at the Makino S-series machines. These are unbelievably fast and reliable machines. I have run the S-series as well as the V-series for many years with very few complaints. The S56 13K spindle is our shop workhorse. It does everything extremely well and the price is not too bad.

 

Carmen

[GoetzInd]

+1 on Makino. May be a little pricey if youre looking for a VF2 replacement though.

 

Mike

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

True that. At the very least, they have to change them to an M code or a G65P.... though, no?

 

Actually no. I can assign G and M-Codes to MACRO programs. Put the G-Code and the variables in and you're GTG.

[Mr. Wizzard]

They are looking at the Haas SS line. I've read on the fourm that they are not

accurate machines.

Its my understanding that a long pitch leadscrew = very fast rapids but poor accuracy and loss of cutting torque

 

You are 100% correct! We have a number of these machines and they will not rock out on high-speed machining of small moves for surfacing and such. I don't exactly know what type of machining you are looking to do, but the Haas SS lines will not do that well. I'm not a Haas basher, they have their place. That's pretty much all we have here. Basically, the SS line is perfect for loose-tolerance simple machining where you want to pick up some sweet time savings on your rapid air-cutting moves: lots of hole drilling, multiple parts packed on the table, lots of tool changes, etc.... A Haas is a Haas, but they are perfect for many shops and machining types. Depend on what you need to do.

 

Machining specifics and $ would be the main factors. I did a search a while back for the best machine for complex free-form surfacing speed. My company ended up not doing anything with it, but I learned a lot from the study. If surfacing is your thing, the Makino S56 kicked a$$ big time! The money you would spend on such a machine would be made up quickly with the speed in which it can spit out surfaced parts.

 

Hope that helps ya a little.

[MACHINEMASTERG]

What you need to get is the high speed look ahead option on that haas and you should have no problums with the new high feed toolpathes we use them here all the time on our haas machines .