Step - Check this out and comment below

[kathy]

Just took a quick look at this ...

 

I've been advocating building the knowldge into the CAD model upfront for some time now. In my application; bonded panels with holes for insert, rivits and bushings, a feature based process would be ideal. A NAS____ insert always uses a certain type hole in one material, and a similar type hole in another material. You could matrix out the hole requirements pretty easily!

 

Kathy

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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You could matrix out the hole requirements pretty easily!

---

Yeah, but that takes planning and foresight, of which..... nevermind. I once heard it said that disgretion(sp?) is the better part of valor so I'll refrain until I can be calm about it.

[Rick Damiani]

It dosn't work with a dealer SIM. I tried it this afternoon.

[McRae]

Thanks Rick,

 

PDG and the rest of CNC, it is obvious that you have to have some sort of involvement here so please comment and give us a little look into the future.

 

Kathy,

 

I agree that inserting some intellegence into the CAD model is a great idea. If we could do this within our organization, I thinks we could shave at least 6-8 weeks off the development cycle.

 

James,

 

Hone up you CAD skills, by allowing more of the information to be defined inside of the CAD system, it will open more opportunity for us in the manufacturing community to proliferate into other regions of the organization. Imagine, if you could design/make the parts knowing how it has to be manufactured!

 

Your 12 year old will benefit more than we will, Just imagine - by that time, Bernie will be using those clubs he manufactures on a daily basis - His lifetime has seen great technological leaps - as have ours in the brief time that we have been employed.

 

I hope that we will embrace change and remember - it is an evolution, not a revolution.

 

Thanks to all for comments and opinions - lets wait for those that know Hardwick's plans before we comment further.

[CAM-mando]

Knowledge based machining will continue to move forward, and as Kathy pointed out, will have certain applications that lend themself to it sooner than others.

 

I see that as a separate issue from the STEP format. STEP just attempts to provide a standard that allows the files to be shared among diferent systems. But as KCollins points out, the various CAD/CAM vendors havent even gotten to where dimensions and symbols come into their software the same way. Relying on an unknown software package to interpret your machining intent that you have imbeded in a step file seems rather unrealistic given the current state of the art. Especially when you think about how the host software would have to be able to account for Machine specific issues. For example: driving that 3 inch drill with your 30 taper machine the way the STEP file is coded might present problems.

 

Whether or not the STEP NC stuff gets anywhere, It seems to me that Knowlege based machining will continue to become a reality. And Interoperability between systems will become increasingly important.

 

In the end if your job security relies on your ability to remember where to click your mouse, then anything that reduces mouse clicks is a job threat. If ingenuity, machining experience, willingness to try new things (etc.) is your bag then being the first STEP / KBM / CNC GURU might just be the ticket.

 

Remember when you could just say "Post Problem" in the face of a programming error. And people would look at you with that "look". Like he's talking that complicated computer stuff. And later the boss would say "Hey I heard there is a POST PROBLEM" is that something you can fix. And you could tell them well Its kind of complex, but Ive been spending my free time teaching myself how to write post processors and yeah I think I can fix it. So for the next day you play around with your MPFANUC.pst and actually learn enough to be dangerous. You fix that bad program and 2 days later you are more of a hero than a goat. Of course these days the Jig is up because half the shop has a cracked copy of something at home and might just know more about post tweaking than you !

 

This Knowlege based machining GURU stuff might be the new frontier for the Primadona !

[Rekd™]

quote:

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I hope that we will embrace change and remember - it is an evolution, not a revolution.

---

+1

 

CAM, you're scaring me again...

 

Nicely said.

 

It seems to me that with the current tools available to us, we already have the ability to automate redundant procedures. I know I have.

 

It may take a new way of thinking for some, (using code and logic to create processes instead of mouse clicks and the dit dit dit of the 10-key), but for those that embrace change and being a part of technological advance, it's going to be an exciting decade for us.

 

'Rekd teh On Error GoTo He||

 

[ 07-12-2003, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: Rekd ]

[Dan_AKA_ROY]

My boss once commented, "I thought you just 'take a picture' and it's modeled". LOL Well a, buy us a farro arm and I could scan, will that do? LOL

 

I thought, "One day, we will 'take a picture' and it's ready to machine, all automatic, all flawless NC code. Done. [but probably not in our lifetime].

 

This step-nc technology may be the start of artificial intelligence. If the machine crashes a part, killing the operator, it learns from it's mistake. It requests the next human operator to press the ON button.

[Jack Mitchell]

CAMmando,

 

If your not beating me with a baseball bat your beating on me with poetry.

 

quote:

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So for the next day you play around with your MPFANUC.pst and actually learn enough to be dangerous.

---

quote:

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This Knowlege based machining GURU stuff might be the new frontier for the Primadona !

---

Major statements from the big leagues - no slight intended whatsoever.

 

God I love this forum.

 

Andrew - I would like to take the task of producing the very example that is used for the demonstration example, and you and I know full well how these show stopper demos have been refined to the max to exhibit how great their product truly is.

 

Arguably, If I were to put up a basic task with realistic expectations and tolerances, I would not be surprised to see a multitude of procedure or arguments to satisfy the end result; for this end result would be as follows: What is the quickest most efficient method of manufacturing this part? given time, frequency, and expected delivery date. - for herein lyes James argument of the real variables.

 

Shall I put up an agrument as a test of goodwill and predictability? Yes, it will be a basic as squaring a block of metal.

 

Knowlege based machining or fortitude might well have its place amoung a similar group of products like a basic relief valve with 8000 variations - but in MHO most of us utilize our skills as toolmakers , machinists, or button pushers as a jobbing shop task or variety and would benefit little from such a product let alone paying $250.00 per month for the luxury of using such a beast.

 

The Step analogy and promise holds my interest for the moment and I might well eat crow for predicting a painfully expensive demise. I do not see a benefit in the future for me personally nor do I see an abundance of potential from within the forum. I do however see an active interest and involvement - Thank You for bringing us this consideration.

 

Regards, Jack

 

[ 07-12-2003, 03:25 AM: Message edited by: Jack Mitchell ]

[BernieT]

+1 CAMmando

 

 

Change is inevitable!!! Like it or not. Stay up to date as much as posible, use new "tools" as they become available. And keep punching that big green button!!!

[Müřlıń®]

Dan2uok.....I have a 5 axis mini scribe digitizing arm that I use with Mastercam....

 

Its fun but kinda time consuming. Better than Laser scanning though in some cases.

 

CAMmando...Yup, its either adapt or perish....

If there is one constant in the universe, it is that nothing stays the same........

 

 

*wonders if anyone still remembers how to use a cross-slide rotary table*

 

 

Murlin

[BernieT]

quote:

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*wonders if anyone still remembers how to use a cross-slide rotary table*

---

I do! I do! (but I haven't used one in prolly 8 or 9 years)

 

When our shop moved here we ended up selling a KF2 Deckel for $400. Nobody needs them anymore. Probably cost $15,000 25 years ago.

 

[Müřlıń®]

BerTau.....Right on Brotha

 

Ya, I think I can still remember how....been way over 20 years for me though.....

 

I used to have all kinds of good data like that stored up there. Started learning about CNC'c and I think some of it fell out.......

 

......Shame it couldn't have been some of that worthless stuff thats up there.....

 

 

Murlin

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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This step-nc technology may be the start of artificial intelligence. If the machine crashes a part, killing the operator, it learns from it's mistake. It requests the next human operator to press the ON button

---

+1

 

Change can be awesome! Change for the sake of change is not smart. Staying on top of things is critical and anyone that thinks that they can "get by with what they know for a while" please step aside so the freight train of people wanting to get ahead does not trample and crush you. I remember a guy when I was getting started in this business that did not want to teach me anything because he was afraid I would take his job. I saw that poor soul last year. I think I make twice as much as he does now.

 

Now for the STEP issue, I'm not afraid that injuneerz are going to take my job. Every time I get a new part from one of them assures me of that. What I don't care for is that some guy 2000 miles away, that may or may not have any real machining experience sends me a file, says "don't mess with it, it's perfect" with no regard for what tooling, setup, etc... I have in my shop. That to me is real dangerous. That's the stuff that few are adressing and must be adressed. KBM/FBM will be long be mature technologies before the setup, tooling, HP, etc... is taken care of. I'm looking forward to the day whan I can import a model (that is right) and maybe only have to program 5-10% of it. That would certainly help our group. We could turn out prototypes faster which would in turn would allow us to capture more market share and make more money, etc... But in it's current state, KBM/FBM is more of a hindrance than a help for about 75% of our parts.

 

Lets keep the dialog going.

 

JM2C

[Müřlıń®]

James, engineers aren't going to take your job.

You are going to take theirs:)

 

 

Knowing how a part is manufactured is extremly important in getting started off on the right foot, and in the right direction.

 

I have seen engineers waste thousands of $ by going in the wrong direction.

 

 

Murlin

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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James, engineers aren't going to take your job.

You are going to take theirs:)

---

Someday, my goal is to be a Manufacturing Engineer, or Mechanical Engineer/Designer.

 

The day I come to work and decide programming is getting too boring will be that day. I need to go back to school though for that and I can't do that until I can carve out a few hours a week for some classes.

[mold100]

quote:

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Knowing how a part is manufactured is extremly important in getting started off on the right foot, and in the right direction.

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well put murlin

[Müřlıń®]

Ya James thats why I think that Engineering is the Final Fonteer for guys like us.....

 

After STEP absorbs all the data it needs, and the NURBS machine_tools make their entrance, we will all be forced once again to evolve our positions.

 

Engineering will be the only place left to go.........

 

Murlin

[Charles Davis]

I respectfully disagree. I think machinists/programmers will benefit by engineers having more DFM information.

 

But, I doubt many engineers have the practical tooling, setup and machining background to program parts.

 

I think a different scenario is that the machinist will move "up market" in the professional trades. That is, the new "manufacturing professional" will be able to plan, design and make fixtures, program, setup, run and inspect. They will be responsible for a part start to finish. They will be complete equals to the engineers, scientists, doctors, etc. that they work with to take ideas to reality.

 

I'm sure many on this board can do this now; you are a rare and truly valuable person!!!!! I don't know of anyone who can do these things that does not have a job; in fact, I could use a few more right now!!

 

What I'm seeing in the most competitive job and prototype shops is one man with a seat of software and a machine.

 

High volume, low cost production will move off shore; you can't compete with China for low labor costs! What's left will be great high tech high paying, great work environment jobs.

[mold100]

Charles,

 

I see what your saying, At my other shops I was always considered a programmer operator or CAM guy, that was my job.But alot of other stuff goes with that I never recieved a job out of engineering that didnt need work on the model to make it machineable-why because they didnt know you cant cut a .03 inside corner radius 4" deep

in heat treated tool steel, or when I asked for a solid model with all the ejector, core pin holes, and waterlines suppressed, I was being retarded because that wouldnt be what the end part looked liked,no matter how many times I told them I manually patch or delete these they didnt get it???And you know what they have certificates that say hey I am smarter than you I can design things I cant cut, hell I dont even know how you guys(CAM guys) got it from point a to b.Now where I work I am a CAM engineer I dont have a certificate but I know what it takes to do Computer aided Manufacturing, and I now design complete molds doing away with a mold designer that has no mold building experience but has a degree that states Certified SPE Injection Mold Engineer. I now have the responsibility of the tool.1st I design it, I do the programming, Over see the Manufacturing and

I still set up and run machines on a daily basis.

There are 3 of us at my shop and we are responsible for all the jobs that come into the shop, from start to finish like you stated.Everything from molds to our production cells, wire EDM, and fabrication dept.

[Müřlıń®]

Nicely put Mold100.....I am a 1 man shop and have my station of Mastercam right on the shop floor beside my 2 CnC's. Thats the only way to fly. Keeping 2 cnc's running unattended while you are modeling and programming the next job.

 

But somehow I lost my piece of paper that says I know how to do any of this stuff.........LOL

 

At least my 2 "robot employees" dont talk back, show up to work on time, and never come in with a hangover and scrap 2k of die-steel.......well.... most of the time most of the time anyway....

 

Charles....We are both seeing the same thing, only from diffrent directions

 

Either way you look at it, the Machinists of the future are going to be changing the color of their collars.

 

Hope I get an office with a view.....

 

Murlin

[mold100]

I have an office window it just happens to be attached to the door of a machine

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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I think machinists/programmers will benefit by engineers having more DFM information.

---

What good is information if you don't use it???

 

What I'm seeing out of the local Colleges and Universities is very disturbing. Granted, no matter how good the Engineering Program is it still takes a bit of the real world stuff to make you effective (which is fine), but I'm not seeing these people understanding the basics. "What do you mean you can't put a .500" gage pin into a .500" hole??? Why not? These are supposedly the best and brightest. We have like 4-5 Engineers, and like 8 injuneerz. Out of the 8 most are degreed, these people are arrogant idiots that have no stinking clue and have the nerve to reject parts for non conformance (because what they designed was impossible to produce with the equipment we have here). They've been instructed time and time again about things like this. From what I'm hearing from other programmers and some on this board it's like that everywhere, and we're going to trust these folks to program our machines. Run for your lives!!!!!!

[Charles Davis]

The best engineering schools are starting to give engineers more shop time. I saw a show about engineering schools and a mechanical engineering student ran a manual hardinge lathe like a pro.

 

The best company's have engineers work for a time in the shop before beginning design work.

 

In my experience, the best engineers are not arrogant, are bright, are sincere about trying to do a great job, and are hungry to get practical advice from knowledgeable machinists.

 

The least competent engineers are the most arrogant. In fact, that's a great quick litmus test to see if an engineer knows what he's are doing.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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The least competent engineers are the most arrogant. In fact, that's a great quick litmus test to see if an engineer knows what he's are doing.

---

+1,000

 

Case in point, we have a VERY talented, young Engineer. Whenever he's designing something new, he'll bring in one or a couple of us and say "I'm thinking about doing this..., do you have any reservations/convcerns about it. Then we'll talk, give our input and if there's not a real need for something, he'll make a change without one problem. If he stays with this company, he's going to be the/one of the best we have. He "goes to school" on every project. We never have to tell him more than once about something. 4 of him could replace the whole Engineering Dept.

 

Now for the flipside, we have an injuneer arrogant as all get out. Doesn't ask for design input until we begin programming and find the issues. This guy makes changes to models while we're in the process of programming them AND DOES NOT TELL ANYONE!!! he's been like that since I've been here and he's not getting much better. And to boot, he learns nothing with each part. Each time we do something similar, it's like re-inventing the wheel. Makes you want to pull him through a hole on one his own parts.

 

quote:

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The best company's have engineers work for a time in the shop before beginning design work.

---

That would help, or what would be even better is if they shadowed us from start to finish, (work the hours we work, see all the issues we deal with, etc... Working the hours we work alone would probably help a bunch.

 

[ 07-13-2003, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: James Meyette ]

[Fig sign]

Charles and James !

 

I know what you mean !

I am so happy that I work in a little mold shop.

We don`t have injuneerz !

All of us 6 men mold shop and everyone works on machines .

My partner that does most of design runs EDM ,

me some design and 2 cnc mills, and the shopowner works like conventional sometimes !

Everyone of us can run any conventional machine and does it from time to time.

To work in a little place like this means that there are no smart professors ,only professionals.

No time for smart games !

 

 

I love to work in small places !

 

Iskander teh misanthrope .