Haas vs Makino part 2

[Bob W.]

Haas sells 600+ machines world wide per month for over a decade. there just aren't that many suckers out there. it's because they offer a good value.

 

For me, the sucker aspect comes from selling the VM3 as a "mold machine" and a SS as a "super speed", or high speed machine. Marketing at its worst and they are making suckers out of their unsuspecting customers that buy into and believe it. A VM3 is as much of a mold machine as a Fiero with a body kit is a Ferrari.

[mkd]

The .0005" I was looking for was JUST FOR SETTING THE TOOLS! If I set 30 tools sequentially using the tool setter, then went back and reset the first tool it would be out by .005". That is how much growth was going on just during tool setting, not to mention any actual machining.

oh, darn i didn't comprehend that, if that was what you wrote-sorry. ya, you musta got a bad one with that z axis/ball screw alignment issue. i have been working on these since mid-'90's and have never seen anything of the sort. personally never saw one vary more than .001. a new machine in this condition would be totally unacceptable to me. they would replace the machine entirely or I would sue their pants off. a linear scale would be a band aid at best. totally inexcusable.

 

A VM3 is as much of a mold machine as a Fiero with a body kit is a Ferrari.

This Haas fanboi can't argue with that.

[MotorCityMinion]

Started new job today and was on a VF2 SS. She may not machine as fast as the Makino but holy cow that rapid caught me off guard a few times. With the combination of open set-ups and low rigidity, and a very low quantity, testing to find max material removal rates is the last thing on my mind. The Makino S56 seemed slow (to me anyway) out of the gate compared to this.

[Mickey_D]

I went through the "buy a new machine" adventure a couple of months ago and looked at a lot of machines and even made a big ugly spreadsheet to help keep everything straight. I looked very hard at Haas (VF3/4 SS pretty loaded out) but between their regular big annual price increases and the recent devaluation of the Japanese Yen there is not a lot of price difference between a Haas and (went with an Okuma 560V) and some of the Japanese machines. Haas needs to get serious about stiffening up their machines and real horsepower because they are not pricing in the bargain zone anymore but with the big boys. And the big boys can clean their clocks in both performance and quality.

[Rotary Ninja]

Here ya go Bob. 2" Facemill taking a .125" DOC. I usually take .250" but on this part I am a little scared.

 

I am not saying this is getting after it in any way. I am just showing you that 100% spindle load and beyond is fine on these machines.

 

Oh, and you owe me a new phone

[Johnny M]

Hi all,

 

I have been reading this thread and the debate between Makino and Haas Price versus Quality / Rigidness / Power issue. I think every machine has it's place in the market.

 

When you look at Makino's machine in discussion there is without a doubt it is the best ( for now ) Machine for it's size and money.

 

This is the only Machine that Makino makes that the price point is on par with other machine builders, so I give full credit on a great machine for the size and price. When you look

at Makino / Okuma / Okk / Matsurra and other good quality Machine builders and their larger machines the prices are a LOT more expensive than Larger Haas Machines.

 

I have only been in the trade for about 12 years and I have seen a lot of good and bad machines, this thread could of been about Makino vs Dah Lih / Awea / Takumi / Jonford / Hwa cheaon etc ...

and it would have been the same outcome that the Makino out performed them all.

 

Remember, this Makino machine just came around it the last 5yrs I think. so the best Value 5yrs ago might have been Haas and other tawainese machines regardless of what is capable today.

 

This thread should have been titled look what my new Makino can do, it kicks butt. To the people that have Haas machines and other brands this is just a eye opener what Makino's entry level machine is capable of doing.

 

BTW I have 2 taiwanese machines ( Awea and a Takumi 50 taper ) they are larger machines and they suit me fine. If I needed a small 20 x 40 Machine I know I would buy the Makino in a heart beat.

 

I have seen the Ps95 run so it's not just this thread and the video posted, it's a great machine.

 

Makino if you are looking at this thread I could use an entry level 40 x 80 machine for about $225 000.00 cnd.

[Bob W.]

Here ya go Bob. 2" Facemill taking a .125" DOC. I usually take .250" but on this part I am a little scared.

 

I am not saying this is getting after it in any way. I am just showing you that 100% spindle load and beyond is fine on these machines.

 

Oh, and you owe me a new phone

 

Nice video. It is about time someone posted up a video response. What was the MRR? I know the Makino was running at about 101 cubic inches per minute in the video. Aside from the Haas vs Makino (or any other high end machine) discussion I would love to see some of the cuts these machines can take. I had the A51nx up to 100% spindle load the other day running a 3/4" end mill at 1" depth and 30% stepover at 600 ipm. It was cutting like butter. This was at 8k rpm.

[Rotary Ninja]

MRR was 27.180in3/min. Like I said, I can run a lot faster on a part I am not scared of scrapping. I will try to get that video for you some day.

[Rotary Ninja]

 

 

Nice video. It is about time someone posted up a video response. What was the MRR? I know the Makino was running at about 101 cubic inches per minute in the video. Aside from the Haas vs Makino (or any other high end machine) discussion I would love to see some of the cuts these machines can take. I had the A51nx up to 100% spindle load the other day running a 3/4" end mill at 1" depth and 30% stepover at 600 ipm. It was cutting like butter. This was at 8k rpm.

 

Wow. That is impressive!

[Thee Rickster ™]

I have been cutting graphite mould bases and components for 8-9 yrs

on this(VF-3 15,000rpm , high speed) machine, it was the 1st we purchased and could afford.

 

here is how long it has ran for

bare in mind 3 tool changer carasels, one spindle, a dozen or more amplifiers, one x and one y servo motor, one 3.5 floppy drive

and one mother board due to graphite dust.

 

served us well

 

 

we have 20 various size hass in our post casting machining department

and a Makino a51 and a p94, both are awesome and we use them mainly for

high precision, rush orders and steel fixture making.

[Joe788]

I have been cutting graphite mould bases and components for 8-9 yrs

on this(VF-3 15,000rpm , high speed) machine, it was the 1st we purchased and could afford.

 

here is how long it has ran for

bare in mind 3 tool changer carasels, one spindle, a dozen or more amplifiers, one x and one y servo motor, one 3.5 floppy drive

and one mother board due to graphite dust.

 

served us well

 

Yikes. All that in 16,000 cycle hours? Were most of those failures related to the graphite dust, or just the motherboard?

[Thee Rickster ™]

not 100% sure that is just what we went through so far

do the hours seem low to you? I have no other experience on longevity

because this is in all my years with hass the machines this one has lasted

and stayed in tolerance the longest.

 

The umbrella changers(not the best design) just wore out or just could not be adjusted to

stop tool change from sticking when extended I typically run at 10000 to 14500

using the coolant cooling the spindle but who knows if the operators ever let it run dry.

original coolant pump(built on Tuesday prolly)

 

the floppy and board from the dust for sure and probably the amplifiers.

 

My 4 yr old oversized vf3 has had many more problem and spindle was changed last year.

 

If the only sold machines built on Tuesday, you wouldn't have the Friday afternoon

inconsistencies....

[Thee Rickster ™]

I would Think that Makino and other high end machines makers, track and log each

machine sold, their mantenance history to see where and when in the factory the flaws are more prevalent,

then improves each sector for optimal machine build consistency. but what do I know....

 

If you've ever been to Makino plant/or facility you'll know what I am talking about

[Newbeeee™]

I think that the majority of people are happy because HAAS machines are very good value for money, and also because they don't know any better.

I don't mean that disrespectfully, but over the pond here the vast majority of local companies used to have bridgeport 600's. These had heidenhain controls so all the subby's loved them - you could throw a job at a guy who would program it on his machine and make the part - lovely jubbly.

But the bridgeports were junk. Box way z (good) but the smallest linear x and y rails you would ever want to see on an engraving machine let alone vmc, and a spindle motor that had smaller balls than an ant.

But everyone locally knew how to use one 'cus they all had been on one, and if a company needed to employ someone, then a dozen people would apply 'cus they all knew how to run the machine.

I have worked with some trully brilliant guys who could work to tight tolerances all day on 'their' machines who were brilliant machinists.

But (flame suit on), I wouldn't call them engineers. They had very small comfort zones - turners are turners and millers are millers used to be thrown at me all the time.

Also, that machine is mazatrol and I'm a fanuc guy (or vice versa or I'm a siemens guy or whatever).

To me an engineer pushes the boundaries and drives to learn new things. Cutter goes round or job goes round! The vast majority of people here are engineers (flame suit now off ).

HSM and MMR are talked here on regular basis, where the majority of people i mentioned if asked, wouldn't know what it was let alone how to apply it. HSM would trully frighten most of the people I'm talking about to death.

This is the reason why I think HAAS are so popular. Most people who use them know how to use them and have a happy comfort zone - the machine does a job well and is value for money.

[Rotary Ninja]

I love running Haas machines and I've been doing it for years. But for anyone buying or currently running a Haas here are some tips...

 

Cleaning chips out: Turn on conveyor. Move -Y- all the way negative. Drag chips to conveyor with shovel. Move -Y- all the way positive. Repeat shovel procedure. Move -Y- all the way negative. Repeat shovel procedure. Move -Y- all the way positive hose out machine. Move -Y- all the way negative. Re-shovel chips back into conveyor that were shoved out of conveyor by conveyor. Hose out machine.

 

Mazak: Turn on chip conveyor. Hose out machine.

 

Okuma: Turn on chip conveyor. Hose out machine.

 

Mori Seiki: You get the idea.

[Bob W.]

I love running Haas machines and I've been doing it for years. But for anyone buying or currently running a Haas here are some tips...

 

Cleaning chips out: Turn on conveyor. Move -Y- all the way negative. Drag chips to conveyor with shovel. Move -Y- all the way positive. Repeat shovel procedure. Move -Y- all the way negative. Repeat shovel procedure. Move -Y- all the way positive hose out machine. Move -Y- all the way negative. Re-shovel chips back into conveyor that were shoved out of conveyor by conveyor. Hose out machine.

 

Mazak: Turn on chip conveyor. Hose out machine.

 

Okuma: Turn on chip conveyor. Hose out machine.

 

Mori Seiki: You get the idea.

 

For the Mazak, Mori, and Okuma you forgot to mention "empty the 55 gallon chip barrel every hour or two." :-)

[Rotary Ninja]

For the Mazak, Mori, and Okuma you forgot to mention "empty the 55 gallon chip barrel every hour or two." :-)

 

ROFL. Good one Bob.

 

I also forgot to mention just have the chip conveyor running while in cycle on almost all other machines and there are no chips in the machine when you're done anyway. On the Haas this is just a waste of electricity.

 

Sorry guys. I just ran a 55 gallon drum out of a VF2 and it's always a pain in the butt on the Haas machines. So I thought of this thread while I was shoveling.

[Joe788]

For the Mazak, Mori, and Okuma you forgot to mention "empty the 55 gallon chip barrel every hour or two." :-)

 

55 gallon drum? C'mon man...

 

 

Chip receptacles should be measured in cubic yards.

[Rotary Ninja]

I would say you just turned that on after running parts all day Joe. But from the sound of that machine you aren't joking.

[Joe788]

I would say you just turned that on after running parts all day Joe. But from the sound of that machine you aren't joking.

 

40hp making 200+ cubic inches per minute makes quick work of it. The dumping there was actually during the slow part. That's when the 5.5 inch long BXD is running. The real chip waterfall comes during the 3 inch long BXD. Chip handling becomes a real chore running this job.

 

The finished part weighs 20lbs.

[Rotary Ninja]

Awesome. That looks all kinds of fun.

[mkd]

40hp making 200+ cubic inches per minute makes quick work of it. The dumping there was actually during the slow part. That's when the 5.5 inch long BXD is running. The real chip waterfall comes during the 3 inch long BXD. Chip handling becomes a real chore running this job.

 

The finished part weighs 20lbs.

lots of fun there!

hey is that Mazak's cat 40/18k Rpm/ 40 hp spindle?

i did a requisition years ago. came down to Mazak Vs Mori. Mazak was more money with more capability. 40hp spindle was not going to help us, so i went Mori. i actually thought 40 Hp on a 40 Taper was kinda silly. interested in Joe's opinion here.?

[Joe788]

lots of fun there!

hey is that Mazak's cat 40/18k Rpm/ 40 hp spindle?

i did a requisition years ago. came down to Mazak Vs Mori. Mazak was more money with more capability. 40hp spindle was not going to help us, so i went Mori. i actually thought 40 Hp on a 40 Taper was kinda silly. interested in Joe's opinion here.?

 

That one is actually an older machine with a 15K 40hp spindle. We've got other machines with 30hp that are fine too, but it's nice to have that extra 25% on jobs where it really makes a difference. Here's the 18k spindle in a video a guy posted on Practical Machinist yesterday 35cim in steel cutting like it's aluminum:

 

[mkd]

^^^holy moley!!!^^

i could totally not do that on my Haas

[Rotary Ninja]

I think a chip flew out of my monitor. Good thing I was still wearing my safety glasses. That was pretty fast. Joe, show us yours!