Makino PS95 V Doosan DNM 500

[DavidB]

I know these machines are in a different league to each other.

I guess I'd like some of your thoughts on is the Makino worth the extra $

 

The Doosan comes with AICC standard

Both are 12K spindles. The Doosan is BT40 plus but the Makino spindle is twice as powerful.

 

I wanted to ask the Makino PS series guys how their machine handles 3D surface work.

Does the Makino’s new Professional P controller handle large 3D tool paths and what is the surface finish like.

 

Its easy to say buy the Makino when its not your money. Funny if I was an employee and the boss asked me which one. I'd say the Makino for sure.

But when its your own coin you look at it very differently.

 

I can buy the Doosan and tool it up for less than I can buy the Makino alone.

In 5 years when the machine is paid off I wonder which one I wished I had bought.

 

Cheers Dave

[GoetzInd]

Does the Doosan have a 31i? The Pro P control is an Oi control. I would probalbly lean Makino but I think you're in good shape either way. Especially if the Doosan has a 31i.

 

Mike

[Eric@HorsepowerInc.]

We recently purchased a DNM400(about 1 year ago) and were looking at a Makino as well. Price was a driving factor as well, we are extremely happy with the Doosan and surface finishes and speed are awesome. That being said we do not do Mold work in the plastics world, just patterns for our castings. Even so, they require no polishing as the finish is that good. We did opt. for the 31 control for many reasons, and we run a lot of 5ax stuff. I believe our main driving factor was the Z travel over the 5th, with the Makino it just limited our capabilities. That being said, I would have gone with the Makino had it fit our part envelope because they are that much better. Another driving factor was we are mainly a doosan shop, so for operator and programmer ease it was a no brainer when we could be up and running in no time. You can't go wrong with either, if you need a bit better machine leaning towards mold making then the makino, if its just parts, the Doosan will handle it. We have a DMV 4020ls that has been pounding parts for 6 plus years at 16 hrs a day, never let's me down. Just recently the only real part we had to replace was the collet for the pull stud, but that's a wear item. Good luck with either.

[#Rekd™]

If price is not a problem I would go with the Makino.

[betts]

You can't go wrong with either, if you need a bit better machine leaning towards mold making then the makino, if its just parts, the Doosan will handle it. We have a DMV 4020ls that has been pounding parts for 6 plus years at 16 hrs a day, never let's me down

 

I would beg to differ with that. Like you we have a DLS 4020 Doosan that is about 8 years old and rocks out and very consistent, especially considering the cost. However we need to add capacity so went with the DNM 500 machine and we all hate it. Programs from the older machine have to be modified as the smaller machine has rigidity and power issues we never had with the older one. The AICC works, but the scale is off, way off. If we use an R1 value in the older machine it will hold most of our tolerances, probably 90% and the rest we bump it up. You can't get the 500 to follow worth crap without high settings and or slowing it down.

 

We have screamed bloody murder and had reseller working on parameters and tweaking and telling them our problems, but no real fix yet. So I believe the newer machine is just not as well made, period.

 

As for Makino we don't have a PS-95 but one of our sister shops does and they love it. I will admit to being a Makino fan, we have six horizontals and two more on the way. We switched to a Matsuura for the next vertical purchase after the DNM-500 disappointed. So my two pennies go to not buying the Doosan.

[DavidB]

Both the Doosan DNM 500 and the Makino PS95 have the Fanuc Oi-MD controller.

[Greg Williams]

Dave,

 

There are always many things to consider when buying new machinery, Obviously there is a difference in price and there is probably is difference on performance to justify the price. I will put some numbers here to explain my point. Lets say the makino cuts 50% more than the Doosan, Lets work on a 5 year turnover.

 

In 5 years will the makino make more parts due to decreases in cycle time?

Will the makino be worth twice as much on the 2nd hand market after 5 years?

Will the cost of servicing reflect the price difference over the 5 year period

Will the parts be more accurate and do they need to be?

Will you win jobs based on the fact that you have a more expensive machine with the perception being that more cost equals faster and more accurate parts?

Will you get a higher level of support and factory backup with the more expensive machine

does the seller of the higher expensive machine have more parts in local stock

what will be the difference in interest over the 5 years of the lease as this cost needs to be added into the mix.

 

For me I would go for the Doosan as I think there support network is better, but hey that is just me

[DavidB]

Hi Greg that threw me. I thought at the end of your questions you would have said to get the Makino.

 

I'm leaning towards the Doosan purely because I can by it and tool it up for less than I can buy the Makino.

The Doosan works out around 6K per year cheaper over the 5 year period to pay them both off.

 

 

In 5 years will the makino make more parts due to decreases in cycle time? I would have thought yes

Will the makino be worth twice as much on the 2nd hand market after 5 years? Again I think Yes

Will the cost of servicing reflect the price difference over the 5 year period

Will the parts be more accurate and do they need to be? I assume the Makino would make a more accurate part than a Doosan. Especially in 5 years time

Will you win jobs based on the fact that you have a more expensive machine with the perception being that more cost equals faster and more accurate parts? I think yes

a higher level of support and factory backup with the more expensive machine

does the seller of the higher expensive machine have more parts in local stock

what will be the difference in interest over the 5 years of the lease as this cost needs to be added into the mix. 30K

[Greg Williams]

Dave,

 

That is of course just my personal opinion from what I have learn over the years. Sure I agree the Makino should be better, faster and overall a better package. I have run a few Makinos, and the is no doubt that a Japanese built Machine is about as good as it gets. Is this PS95 wholly made in japan?If it is then it will be better than the Doosan, but if the PS95 is made somewhere else then essentially you are paying money for the Makino name in my opinion. I remember a few years ago they had the Japanese made V33 and the S33 out of Singapore the 2 machine were miles apart in quality

[DavidB]

The PS series are made in Singapore. They are not Japanese built. How much does where a machine is assembled really change the end result if the components are the same?

Same as the Okuma Genos series hey?

[SLJ]

With 13 Doosan mills in the shop, some with 20k+ hours and 6 Makinos I'll take the Makinos every time.

[Redfire427]

In your opening statement, you posted an error. The Makino is actually a 14K spindle. I know nothing about the Doosan, however, we do have two of the Makino PS95's. They are an awesome machine in every aspect. Bullet fast, super accurate, standard features include 440 psi through spindle coolant, super user friendly and a great control ( not as powerful as our higher model Makino's, but still awesome ). I would buy one in a heartbeat.

 

As far as where the machine is assembled, in my opinion, totally irrelevant. We have a 10 year old Makino S56 which is run every day and it has never had a service call. Freakin' unbelievable machine. It was basically replaced by the new PS95 model for the most part. Both machines are assembled in Singapore.

 

Carmen

[DavidB]

Redfire the STANDARD Makino PS95 in Australia has a 12K spindle not 14

TSC is an option here in Australia too.

 

In my Makino quote here is a list of the OPTIONS!

 

4th Axis NC Rotary Table Interface with Fanuc items (NO Rotary)

Through Spindle coolant 1.5Mpa

Portable MPG (Hand Wheel)

Main Circuit Breaker

Auto Tool Length Measure Reinishaw TS-27R

AI Contour Control

 

 

I notice on the USA Makino sight you guys get a lot more options in the Standard package.

 

Redfire do you do any 3D surface toolpaths on the PS95? How does it go?

I have heard Makino PS95 owners complain about swarf evacuation when machining lots of alloy the trumperts out the side of the machine can not keep up.

[Redfire427]

Hmmm, I'm surprised there would be two different "standards" depending on your global location. 3D machining has been very successful, but it really shines on the 2D high-speed tool paths. Downright scary fast. With twin screws feeding a conveyor for chip evacuation, I can't imagine any swarf problems. We certainly haven't had any.

[DavidB]

Do you have the conveyor going out the back? That's another 12K option!

[DavidB]

Well I have run some 3D test on the Makino PS-95 with AICC and a Doosan DNM 500 with AICC.

Very interesting results.

 

Running same programs on a Feeler VMP today.

 

Cheers Dave

[Guest]

Matsuura VX1000

 

[workmantm]

Well I have run some 3D test on the Makino PS-95 with AICC and a Doosan DNM 500 with AICC.

Very interesting results.

 

Running same programs on a Feeler VMP today.

 

Cheers Dave

 

Can you share your results? We are looking at the PS65 and the DNM 400II right now to replace our oldest mill.

[DavidB]

Can you share your results? We are looking at the PS65 and the DNM 400II right now to replace our oldest mill.

 

I will once I get the test results CMM measured.

I want to make sure my comments are backed up by actual results. But there is a clear winner on surface finish. Lets see how the 3D surfaces measure up.

 

Cheers Dave

[Newbeeee™]

^^^Dave - is the one with good finish direct drive and the other belt drive spindle?

And are they both fanuc alpha packs or beta packs or one alpha and one beta?

[workmantm]

I will once I get the test results CMM measured.

I want to make sure my comments are backed up by actual results. But there is a clear winner on surface finish. Lets see how the 3D surfaces measure up.

 

Cheers Dave

 

I appreciate the feedback. I just got told we have a 4 week window to make our decision and plan on doing a test cut for ourselves. All additional info I can gather helps me justify the reasons to purchase the more expensive machine or to look towards the lower cost product that the owner only wants to look at based on price alone.

[DavidB]

I appreciate the feedback. I just got told we have a 4 week window to make our decision and plan on doing a test cut for ourselves. All additional info I can gather helps me justify the reasons to purchase the more expensive machine or to look towards the lower cost product that the owner only wants to look at based on price alone.

 

PM sent

[DavidB]

Email sent

[DavidB]

^^^Dave - is the one with good finish direct drive and the other belt drive spindle?

And are they both fanuc alpha packs or beta packs or one alpha and one beta?

 

The better surface finish came from the belt driven machine.

[Newbeeee™]

Who'd a thunk that?

Does the belt drive machine have alpha drives (so more resolution on the encoder) or is it box way compared to linear rails?

Interesting.