Milling chuck and stick-out

[Matthew Hajicek - Singularity]

So I was hogging aluminum for a fixture with a 5/8" two flute in an ER-32 and it kept pulling out no matter how hard I tightened it, so I got a Nikken milling chuck to use instead.  Setting this up I'm noticing that the flute grind goes way past the cutting edge, but I'd rather not stick it out that far.  Will it damage the milling chuck or reduction collet to choke up past the flute relief?

[cncchipmaker]

I'm not sure if it will damage your collet, more than likely it will. Your ER 32 may just have a crack in the holder and that is why your end mill is pulling out. We use shrink fit tooling here at work and never had an end mill pull out. Also, if you can't afford shrink fit a good old fashioned set screw holder works great and they are relatively priced OK. You will want to put a flat on your end mill though. It does seam that you are putting a rather large EM in a holder that really should just be used for drills.

[AMCNitro]

So I was hogging aluminum for a fixture with a 5/8" two flute in an ER-32 and it kept pulling out no matter how hard I tightened it, so I got a Nikken milling chuck to use instead.  Setting this up I'm noticing that the flute grind goes way past the cutting edge, but I'd rather not stick it out that far.  Will it damage the milling chuck or reduction collet to choke up past the flute relief?

I had the same problem years ago with a 5/8 and a ER32.  If we pushed the tool, feeds wise, it would pull out.  Perhaps that size and that collet just dont go together

[MIL-TFP-41]

In my experience...ER and hogging = pullout. ER's are not meant for heavy roughing.

 

You will be fine putting some of the flute relief in your milling chuck. Just don't bury an inch of flute into the chuck collet.

[Sticky]

The biggest problems with ER systems is that virtually no one assembles them correctly or maintains the system.

 

The chucks/arbors to wear, the collets wear much faster, when they do, throw them out. They are cheap to replace with quality components.

 

Use a torque wrench to tighten the nut. The spec is 100ft/lbs if over .125" cutter diameter. Using a mallet is just going to ruin your collet and nut.

[ScottBro4]

Easiest fix if you're just roughing, grind a flat and put it in a solid holder. 

[crazy^millman]

Hydraulic Milling Chuck, Rego-Fix Suregrip, Haimer Secure Lock and some others are what you should be using. ER collet should not be used with HST toolpaths unless you are planning on taking very light step overs, even then I would be very weary doing so.

[Matthew Hajicek - Singularity]

They're not old or worn; everything here is less than three months old.  I agree that ER shouldn't be used for heavy cuts; that's why I got the Nikken milling chuck.  Are the hydraulics much better than the mechanical, and how much more expensive are they?

[jeff]

They're not old or worn; everything here is less than three months old.  I agree that ER shouldn't be used for heavy cuts; that's why I got the Nikken milling chuck.  Are the hydraulics much better than the mechanical, and how much more expensive are they?

If you can get away with a 3 flute, you'd be able to hang onto a little more of that endmill.

[crazy^millman]

They're not old or worn; everything here is less than three months old.  I agree that ER shouldn't be used for heavy cuts; that's why I got the Nikken milling chuck.  Are the hydraulics much better than the mechanical, and how much more expensive are they?

 

Expensive is in the mind of the beholder. I am running some cuts with 3/4 3 flute endmills at 24k rpms 560 ipm with 200% depth of cut with 20% step over on $250k parts last thing I need to worry about so how much does the tool holder cost. Even if it is $50 part how many of them do you need to scrap or how endmills do you need to tear up before the price of the holder and using the right one becomes more important? Machines are not cheap and the time someone is wasting running it slower or having the tool pull out is just insane to worry about their cost. Money well spent using a good Hydraulic holder. I had a Mastercam bug take a 3/4 endmill and bury it 3" depth of cut full width. The endmill broke off, but never moved out of the hydraulic chuck. Was running at 8000 rpms and 300 imp on a Mori H5000 CAT 50 machine. I still have those pieces of endmill on my desk. They do what they say they do and I have no problem telling any customer to use them for HST toolpaths.

[Chris_C]

They're not old or worn; everything here is less than three months old.  I agree that ER shouldn't be used for heavy cuts; that's why I got the Nikken milling chuck.  Are the hydraulics much better than the mechanical, and how much more expensive are they?

I use these hydraulics and LOVE them ! Haven't had a cutter pull out on me yet.... http://www.schunk-produkte.com/en/toolholders/tendo-e-compact.html

Don't remember the exact price , think around  $250 , and the sleeves are around $50

[Rstewart]

If your spinning less than 15k a solid endmill holder can't be beat for roughing.  The Good holders will have little run-out,  for anything above 3/8" they're my go to for Roughing.

[crazy^millman]

If your spinning less than 15k a solid endmill holder can't be beat for roughing.  The Good holders will have little run-out,  for anything above 3/8" they're my go to for Roughing.

 

Take the same tool and put in a hydraulic chuck using the same parameters and you will get better tool life. Let's ignore the claim some make of 300% and just use 10% longer or better tool life using a 5 times more expensive holder. $50 holder yields 200 minutes of cut. Shop rate is $100/hr or $1.67 a minute. More expensive holder gives us an extra 20 minutes of run time on the tool. That is an extra $33.40 per tool of life we were not getting. If we were going through 10 endmills a month for roughing and got an extra $33.40 per endmill of shop time out of them in one month that better holder more than paid for itself. Now we use real money of for every minute we saved or added is really 2 we really reaped a benefit of $668 going from a $50 holder to a $250 holder in one month. In one year on one tool that has a added profit to the company of $8,016. Yes good tool holders are not cheap when you 1st buy them, but the cost is far cheaper in the long run. Pay me now or pay me later, but manufacturing parts cost money and ever little advantage we can use and have should be taken.

[Sticky]

Take the same tool and put in a hydraulic chuck using the same parameters and you will get better tool life.

 

No, not in the application he is talking about, especially with a 40 taper. The sidelok will provide better tool life.

[crazy^millman]

No, not in the application he is talking about, especially with a 40 taper. The sidelok will provide better tool life.

 

Have you taken an done any tests using either? I have seen the difference and run out on any tool reduces the tool life plan and simple. A weldon holder with a weldon flat to me will not provide better tool life. Why we are different and do such different things. End of the day if we have a project to do we will follow what we think is the best process and method to make the best parts possible. Last thing I want to worry about is a set screw coming loose or a tool pulling out. We need it right and working like we expect the 1st time. Customer wants us to put the endmill in a drill chuck we will do it, but they will know we don't accept any responsibility/damage for the part, drill chuck, tool or machine.

[AMCNitro]

I be ran the same job(inconnel), with the same tool, one on the weldon, and another on the hydrolic chuck(kennametal), and not only did we get more tool life but we also got a better finish.  

[Sticky]

Have you taken an done any tests using either? I have seen the difference and run out on any tool reduces the tool life plan and simple. A weldon holder with a weldon flat to me will not provide better tool life. Why we are different and do such different things. End of the day if we have a project to do we will follow what we think is the best process and method to make the best parts possible. Last thing I want to worry about is a set screw coming loose or a tool pulling out. We need it right and working like we expect the 1st time. Customer wants us to put the endmill in a drill chuck we will do it, but they will know we don't accept any responsibility/damage for the part, drill chuck, tool or machine.

 

Extensively. Sidelok always gets better tool life for roughing. This experience mirrors findings of top mfg's like Emuge and Schunk. The benefit to hydraulic is finishing work, or in some applications where the necessary reach on the tool creates a harmonic that a solid system cannot overcome.

 

Modern quality sidelok tools are guaranteed to have under .0003" of run out (I inspect every holder we buy and they meet this claim), which is almost on par with most hydraulic holders. The advantage the sidelok holder brings is that for the same diameter capacity of the hydraulic, the sidelok will be 1-3" shorter in gage length. On a 40 taper machine, this is was is going to really blow the tool life comparison out of the water. Add in the benefit of having a very narrow nose which allows for better chip evacuation and getting coolant to the cutting edges and the sidelok's really start to shine.

 

If you have a tool pulling out of a sidelok, you had an assembly error. Likewise if you screw up assembling a hydraulic, a tool will pull out. The sidelok system has enough holding force to either break the endmill, or start pulling the arbor taper away from the spindle. I've done it on a machine with 2200lb draw bar pressure, which is double that of a Haas.

 

I was at a trade show 2 years ago and was chatting with an engineer from Emuge at their booth and we were discussing MRR for various stainless materials. He asked me which holder I got the best tool life from for roughing with solid carbide under 19mm diameter, I instantly replied that sidelok gave us the best tool life. He smiled and said he now knew I had actually tested them. Both of us admitted that initially we bought into the hydraulic is the be all end all holder for roughing, but extensive testing taught us otherwise.

 

I still have lots of uses for hydraulic holders, and use them daily, but they are a long ways off from being top dogs in the roughing department.

[crazy^millman]

Extensively. Sidelok always gets better tool life for roughing. This experience mirrors findings of top mfg's like Emuge and Schunk. The benefit to hydraulic is finishing work, or in some applications where the necessary reach on the tool creates a harmonic that a solid system cannot overcome.

 

Modern quality sidelok tools are guaranteed to have under .0003" of run out (I inspect every holder we buy and they meet this claim), which is almost on par with most hydraulic holders. The advantage the sidelok holder brings is that for the same diameter capacity of the hydraulic, the sidelok will be 1-3" shorter in gage length. On a 40 taper machine, this is was is going to really blow the tool life comparison out of the water. Add in the benefit of having a very narrow nose which allows for better chip evacuation and getting coolant to the cutting edges and the sidelok's really start to shine.

 

If you have a tool pulling out of a sidelok, you had an assembly error. Likewise if you screw up assembling a hydraulic, a tool will pull out. The sidelok system has enough holding force to either break the endmill, or start pulling the arbor taper away from the spindle. I've done it on a machine with 2200lb draw bar pressure, which is double that of a Haas.

 

I was at a trade show 2 years ago and was chatting with an engineer from Emuge at their booth and we were discussing MRR for various stainless materials. He asked me which holder I got the best tool life from for roughing with solid carbide under 19mm diameter, I instantly replied that sidelok gave us the best tool life. He smiled and said he now knew I had actually tested them. Both of us admitted that initially we bought into the hydraulic is the be all end all holder for roughing, but extensive testing taught us otherwise.

 

I still have lots of uses for hydraulic holders, and use them daily, but they are a long ways off from being top dogs in the roughing department.

 

That is the kind of answer I was looking for and the difference between your shop running them and others. A lot of shops will cheap out and get the one that the tool is running .003 out and then complain about how the toolpath sucks. You are checking for the these important aspects and might even be running a tool balancer. Sadly most places never consider these important parts of the equation. In those places that don't what is a better way to go about insuring you get what you need from the tool? If they do it like you do I agree side lock is a good way. If they do it like a lot of places and have beat up wore out holders I say telling them to run that against Hydraulic and they will see a difference. Thanks for answer with good information that hopefully someone will learn from. Have a great day.  

[absolute technologies]

I would have to agree about a side lock Weldon holder being better for roughing. IMHO, the primary reason is the gage length on a Weldon holder is typically shorter which is vital on a #40 taper machine, particularly on a Haas with relatively small spindle bearing diameter and low draw bar force. Hydraulic, shrink fit holders and power chucks have an excessive amount of overhang with 3/4" and up and retention is put to the test with the cantilevered effect of the load being so far from the gage-line. Higher retention will result in higher tool life as well. Although you must consider a few things when using Weldon holders like make sure you use Weldon spec set screws and flats which have like .004 tolerance across the flats. Also over tightening the set screw stretches the holder body and pushes the tool off center as well. Although you may have some radial run-out, its' less of an issue during roughing because the feed per tooth is high. When your roughing chip load is high like .003, .005 or .008 even .010 per tooth, .001 or so radial run-out isn't kill the tool as much as excessive overhang is. Granted the radial run-out also changes clearance and relief angles that will have an effect on tool life as well. It's all a trade off.. 

 

my 2¢ worth...

 

Cheers!

Len Dye