Implementing Tool Management Software

[Frank Caudillo]

I have a question for those who have implemented tool management software at their shops. 

 

We're currently in the process of updating our "master tool crib" mastercam tool library, which contains all of the tools our shop uses. We're also looking at our options for tool management software, talking mostly with Wintool right now, although I'm waiting on more info from Cimco. 

 

My question is this - should we be waiting until we implement a software to go through all of the data entry stages? Or is it still a good idea to have up-to-date, detailed mastercam tool and assembly databases?

 

Let me know if I didn't explain something clearly. 

 

Any input is appreciated. Thanks. 

[Watcher]

WinTool admin here...

 

Your efforts in other systems will be pretty much useless datawise speaking...

 

There's a thread here about Tool Management software... It's worth a read...

 

You mentioned Cimco? For tool management?

[Jayson Kramer]

Cimco does not offer tool management at this time that I know off on the US side for sure not. Now most does not know that Cimco does have other tools like Probing , Posts and CAM path tools that work with Mastercam.

[crazy^millman]

Wintool would be a good choice.

[robk]

We are in process of implementing Zoller TMS (Gold Package). Lot's of growing pains.

 

http://www.zoller.info/en/products/managing

[SlaveCam]

I so much want a tool management in this shop. It is eventually becoming a necessity with all the wasted time looking for existing or non-existing tools and inserts. Maybe use LibreOffice Base to create a poor-man's tool management system?

[crazy^millman]

I so much want a tool management in this shop. It is eventually becoming a necessity with all the wasted time looking for existing or non-existing tools and inserts. Maybe use LibreOffice Base to create a poor-man's tool management system?

 

I created one about 18 years ago using Access. It used bar codes and query everything. Had max-min and we even did all of our job cards out of that. I could tell you what any job took and how much it cost to make anything. I didn't do any VB scripts, but it was good for what it did.

[Watcher]

http://www.emastercam.com/board/topic/84096-tool-management-software-reccomendations/

[David Colin]

We are in process of implementing Zoller TMS (Gold Package). Lot's of growing pains.

http://www.zoller.info/en/products/managing

We just started too (silver only) but what a huge job and how to be sure to do it the right way...

[robk]

We just started too (silver only) but what a huge job and how to be sure to do it the right way...

 

There are a lot of unforeseen issues/problems that we are running into. We are using RFID chips. Zoller and Mazak are working very hard to make the chip string work. We are almost there...

Our units are used for large mill turn machines and some of the big challenges were getting correct measurement of right angle heads as well as turning tools on different angles-- Than being able to write to different tool group #'s and managing tool life. We are also having issues with the format of DXF files that Sandvik uses. We need to "re-save" them in order to make them work.

There are other "minor annoyances", but I am really having fun with what this software could do.

 

 

 

 

 

[Frank Caudillo]

WinTool admin here...

 

Your efforts in other systems will be pretty much useless datawise speaking...

 

There's a thread here about Tool Management software... It's worth a read...

 

You mentioned Cimco? For tool management?

 

Yes, I had looked into Cimco for a complete data management package, but I guess that doesn't apply to what we're looking for now. I had also seen that thread on Tool Management recommendations - I'll revisit it and go over more thoroughly. 

 

Your reply is what I was looking for, as to whether or not we're wasting time updating and building Mastercam tool databases before trying to implement any kind of tool management package. I understand with any type of software there is going to be a lot of upfront work creating these databases, but if they need to built from the ground up within their software, then we're probably just doing more work than is necessary. 

 

I apologize for any lack of clarity. I'm a younger, less experienced programmer trying to learn as much as I can about how all of this works before we dive in to such a big project. The company I work for is probably relatively small (about 40 employees and a dozen mills) compared to a lot places, but we're anticipating a lot of growth in the near future and want to get as organized as possible before then. 

 

Thanks!

[Jayson Kramer]

Frank we have the MDM for Data Management and revision control from the NC files to the Mastercam files but we have nothing to for Tool management at this point.
I am going into a meeting with the MDM developer in about an hour. I will ask if there are any thoughts for adding any type of tool management in near future 

 

Frank any cahnce you and me spoke?

[Watcher]

Frank,

 

I manipulate WinTool and Zoller databases on a weekly basis. I've written half dozen applications to query WinTool and CIMCO databases. Don't bother to waste time building MC databases if you are going to have WinTool2Mastercam interface.

 

Not a technical constrain, but anyway WinTool is MS-SQL or MS-Access and Mastercam is SQLite. It's like saying your are going from TCP/IP data transfer to save stuff in a file.

 

 

Besides, their tables don't have much interoperability with each other in terms of how data is structured. They're designed with different purposes in mind.

[Frank Caudillo]

Frank we have the MDM for Data Management and revision control from the NC files to the Mastercam files but we have nothing to for Tool management at this point.

I am going into a meeting with the MDM developer in about an hour. I will ask if there are any thoughts for adding any type of tool management in near future 

 

Frank any cahnce you and me spoke?

 

Jay, 

 

That's what I have gathered so far from my research. Cimco MDM looks like a very nice product and the integration with Mastercam is obviously a plus. I had been talking with local dealer and even an applications engineer from Cimco (I think... he didn't seem to have much knowledge on the MDM product), but haven't heard back in a week or so. Since then I have shifted my focus to strictly Tool Management solutions because I think that is where we have the most to gain. However, I always appreciate any info that could help make our shop more productive!

 

Frank,

 

I manipulate WinTool and Zoller databases on a weekly basis. I've written half dozen applications to query WinTool and CIMCO databases. Don't bother to waste time building MC databases if you are going to have WinTool2Mastercam interface.

 

Not a technical constrain, but anyway WinTool is MS-SQL or MS-Access and Mastercam is SQLite. It's like saying your are going from TCP/IP data transfer to save stuff in a file.

 

 

Besides, their tables don't have much interoperability with each other in terms of how data is structured. They're designed with different purposes in mind.

 

Daniel,

 

Thanks for the insight. I'm still learning more about the background computer programming aspect of things (editing posts and, as you do, manipulating databases). The possibility of the two databases (WinTool and Mastercam) communicating well with each was a concern of mine from the beginning. I'll suggest to our programming staff that we hold off or at least not put so much time into our tool library work until we have a better idea of the direction we are going. Thanks for all the help!

[Watcher]

My pleasure Frank.

 

I´m at your disposal. If you want to have a phone call so I can explain you some of the quirks we learned in our implementation, send me a PM.

 

It´s always a pleasure to help people to start right from the ground up and avoid the mistakes we make in the beginning.

 

Daniel

[Jayson Kramer]

Frank, we had not talked you spoke with Craig and Mike it looks like. I got thrown in to the arena as of yesterday. Makebe we need to talk about what you are asking to see in our MDM product.

[The Cathedral]

We just started too (silver only) but what a huge job and how to be sure to do it the right way...

 

It's been a year since we purchased and began implementing TMS Silver. It's been working great; biggest problem was changing the mindset of all the employees that use it.

[Frank Caudillo]

It's been a year since we purchased and began implementing TMS Silver. It's been working great; biggest problem was changing the mindset of all the employees that use it.

 

That is Zoller, correct? Not sure how large your shop is, but would you recommend it to a shop on the *relatively* smaller size - we have about a dozen mills (though that is going to increase in the near future).

 

And yeah, apart from learning the software and building the databases, the biggest hurdle by far is going to be making sure everyone in the shop abides by the proper practices. 

[Bob W.]

 

the biggest hurdle by far is going to be making sure everyone in the shop abides by the proper practices. 

 

In my experience the biggest roadblock in implementing a tool management system is this right here.  If done right they are fantastic but it requires discipline from everyone involved.

[pip]

We used Benz Cam system. Very highly recomend.  Main problem being, is it is based in Switzerland.. As Bob.W  said..DISCIPLINE is your main obstacle..

[Zoober]

Frank,

 

I manipulate WinTool and Zoller databases on a weekly basis. I've written half dozen applications to query WinTool and CIMCO databases. Don't bother to waste time building MC databases if you are going to have WinTool2Mastercam interface.

 

Not a technical constrain, but anyway WinTool is MS-SQL or MS-Access and Mastercam is SQLite. It's like saying your are going from TCP/IP data transfer to save stuff in a file.

 

 

Besides, their tables don't have much interoperability with each other in terms of how data is structured. They're designed with different purposes in mind.

Question Daniel... Do you use Chrystal Reports?

Reason I ask, is the interoperability between datasets is unbelievable.communicating between MS-SQL and any other flavor of SQL (or ODBC compliant data - Oracle, Sybase, ) is as easy as drag and dropping arrows to map fields. They only have to meet the same data type and size constraints.

I always see people build these applications to extract data and then re-format and import into the other dataset.

Is there something I'm missing?

[Watcher]

I built applications that integrate systems with each other... A good example is that we store tool lists in cimco Nc-base, and every day my application finds which tool lists, assemblies or components were modified in WinTool and create fresh tool list PDFs for all programs in cimco database that reference an affected tool list from WinTool.

I also wrote an application to integrate cimco ncbase with our SAP ERP. Engineering drawings revised by our engineering worldwide, if any program in ncbase references a drawing that was revised in SAP, I lock the program in ncbase and add a file note in the program saying the revision level does not match SAP´s... such programs cannot be sent to or requested by the machine.

This would be an example of making SQL applications talk to each other... In these two examples, Crystal reports can't do much because it requires specific logic to interpret and manipulate data... requires an application...

For reports, WinTool comes with a report builder, Stimulsoft. The principles are the same used in Crystal reports...

[Zoober]

Thanks for the explanation.

I did essentially that between Cribmaster and Mastercam and Jobboss (or Vista) using scheduled queries and custom reports in Crystal.

Contrary to popular belief, custom reports can be used to build and write back to tables in basically any format required, and scheduled to import or export the data based on changes or time.

We live updated back and forth between Oracle, MS-sql and access with no issues. But the key is having access to the back end. SAP should be able to connect no problem I would think.

[The Cathedral]

That is Zoller, correct? Not sure how large your shop is, but would you recommend it to a shop on the *relatively* smaller size - we have about a dozen mills (though that is going to increase in the near future).

 

And yeah, apart from learning the software and building the databases, the biggest hurdle by far is going to be making sure everyone in the shop abides by the proper practices. 

 

Yes, Zoller. We use it to track tooling for 26 machines (lathes, mills, multi-task). I think it would be fine for your size shop, especially if you know you are expanding, although I bet it will make it harder to justify the cost. Once we got organized and started using it fully, we were seeing a savings of around $15,000 a month in tooling. Which means our investment is paid off already, and since we're ESOP, once everyone saw that money they we're like, "yeah, this is the right thing to do."

 

The difference will be in how organized your shop is. Our shop stared in 1956 and the guys kind of carried that mentality over from year to year. I started in aerospace so when I came here I knew we were throwing away money with disorganization so, when I finally had enough weight to throw around, I threw it at this project and got it started. If your shop already has decent discipline, your ROI might be a lot longer.

 

EDIT: just want to point out that the savings was in tooling alone by reducing redundant inventory and doesn't come close to capturing the time we save during set-ups and such. We're a job shop so we're doing set-ups all day, every day and that time alone is worth more than I can count.

[Frank Caudillo]

Yes, Zoller. We use it to track tooling for 26 machines (lathes, mills, multi-task). I think it would be fine for your size shop, especially if you know you are expanding, although I bet it will make it harder to justify the cost. Once we got organized and started using it fully, we were seeing a savings of around $15,000 a month in tooling. Which means our investment is paid off already, and since we're ESOP, once everyone saw that money they we're like, "yeah, this is the right thing to do."

 

The difference will be in how organized your shop is. Our shop stared in 1956 and the guys kind of carried that mentality over from year to year. I started in aerospace so when I came here I knew we were throwing away money with disorganization so, when I finally had enough weight to throw around, I threw it at this project and got it started. If your shop already has decent discipline, your ROI might be a lot longer.

 

EDIT: just want to point out that the savings was in tooling alone by reducing redundant inventory and doesn't come close to capturing the time we save during set-ups and such. We're a job shop so we're doing set-ups all day, every day and that time alone is worth more than I can count.

 

Wow, that's an impressive amount of savings. I would say our organization is okay. We use a tool vending system but the overall tool management is still very much a hands-on process. The issues we run into consistently are changes made to tooling that do not get recorded and we wonder months down the road why the tool list doesn't match what's in the machine and why our CAM files do not match the process in the code (i.e. we'll hand edit a cycle if it gets changed to a carbide drill but our programming doesn't get updated). We also run into issues where the operators do not follow the tool list faithfully and tool setups tend to wander further and further from their original specs over time, which is terrifying.

 

I'm thinking for this to all work the way I think it should, we'll need to have one or two more experienced guys on the floor be in charge of the tool setup, rather than the, for lack of a better word, button pushers (though I started out as one so I shouldn't bad mouth them too much). Those few employees would have the access to the tool setup sheets from the management software and update things when they change which would, ideally, alert us programmers what we need change. 

 

I also think it would help the programming side immensely if we had up-to-date tool library information we could trust to program with, without having to wander into the shop to verify. Like you said, time savings is something that can be hard to quantify but can make a huge difference down the road.

 

Thanks for the input!