Bob W.

UUUUGGHHH! I have to vent!! Mill turn...

Recommended Posts

I am so sick and tired of Mastercam's mill turn and trying to get my DMG Mori NTX2000 to work right.  There are so many damn hand edits and it is risky (editing mistakes) and time consuming.  These aren't custom features, they are things like unclamping the B-axis for 5-axis machining and getting the G68.1 to post correctly.  Things that EVERY NTX 2000 CAN DO!!!  CNC Software, why the hell doesn't this xxxx work?  You are wasting my time!  The cost of my lost productivity far out paces the cost of your mill turn product.  You owe it to me to fix this crap and deliver a product that works.  I paid for it, now deliver.  If I had access to the post I could fix all these issues in a matter of hours, not months or years.

 

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was reading in the mill turn application guide for the Mori and it calls out the correct format for G68.1 pattern 1 but the posted code isn't output correctly, LOL!  Actually I don't think it is funny at all, I feel like a sucker that is being screwed after buying a product that doesn't work and is costing me $xx,xxx in lost productivity.  I bought Esprit but I REALLY want to stick with mastercam because that is what I know.  I just needs to work...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tell us how you really feel Bob 😄

 

I wish I could be of help, I do good to spell Mill-Turn.

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, programming in mill-turn really is a piece of cake.  The challenge is every program with a new feature (cutoff/ pickoff, TCP, G68.1, etc...)  never runs right on the machine and results in calls with our dealer, calls with Mori, etc...  We identify the issue and have to hand edit every program.  I feel like my mill turn post is the prototype.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's what getting my post dialed in for our Okuma VTM1200 was like

I worked on it off and on for 3 years before we got it dialed in.

Postability stuck with me through it all, including lots of wasted time getting stuff

wrong because I didn't understand what was going on.

It's still not 100% dialed in but it's very close

The machine has 3 or 4 different ways to do the same thing and it can get real confusing.

It's not as complex as that Mori either, because I don't have to deal with bar puliing or swapping stock from one

chuck to another

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
35 minutes ago, Bob W. said:

I feel like my mill turn post is the prototype.

Are you working through your reseller or direct to CNC?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Working with my reseller.  They have indicated frustration at having to make the same changes over and over because the base posts at CNC aren't getting updated.  The Mori AEs warned me about this and told me other shops in the area spent months trying to get Mastercam working correctly before giving up and switching to Esprit.  My thought was all that work couldn't have been for nothing and the issues surely made it back to CNC and the posts were updated but I was clearly wrong and the AEs were right.  It has played out pretty much as they said it would.  At this point all I can do it put the word out so someone trying to decide between Esprit and Mastercam knows what they are in for.

  • Sad 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
3 minutes ago, Bob W. said:

At this point all I can do it put the word out so someone trying to decide between Esprit and Mastercam knows what they are in for.

Our new programmer was basically a Mastercam and Featurecam programmer (mainly mills).

After support for Featurecam fell off soon after he arrived we considered MC and Esprit and he finally decided on Esprit, despite the fact that when he does a mill program he sparks up MC.

He is happy with Esprit so far, his only gripe being that the interface is out dated, but I guess they are working on that.

I can certainly see both sides of this, much of MCs "bad" rep has come from messed up posts (MP) floating around out there which generate bad code which is then blamed on MC. I am sure this is frustrating for CNC and so it isn't surprising to me that they want to keep more control of MT.

Of course that has its downsides too, especially if they have problems keeping up with development at the customer level. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The post for my machine was the latest version downloaded from Mastercam so these issues are baked into that version.  I think unclamping the B-axis for 5-axis machining is one of the issues my reseller has to deal with over and over, among others.  B-axis contouring is specified with M594, then is needs to be unclamped with M369.  Well the M369 isn't posted so the machine hangs up.  If Mastercam worked I feel it would be a much better product than Esprit but I am also a little biased because it is what I know.  If it doesn't work it is kind of a moot point though.  I haven't even started thinking about implementing some of the custom technology cycles yet.  Just getting the machine to run a basic program without edits is challenging enough.

FWIW, we are a 5-axis aerospace shop running Makinos and the Mori NTX.  We are AS9100 certified and ITAR registered.  We make rocket and fighter jet parts and we are good at what we do.  I really need my tools and equipment to work so we can do our jobs and keep our customers happy.  I hate it when faulty tools or equipment make our job harder...  We already have enough challenges to deal with in just making the parts we make.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I'd go straight to the top at CNC Software with this.

CNC Software and it's mill turn customers have too much time and $$$ invested

to let a quality control issue like this go uncorrected.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Colin Gilchrist said:

[email protected]

[email protected]

For directly contacting the mothership, I recommend CC'ing your Reseller on the email.

I would include sales as well

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bob W. said:

Working with my reseller.  They have indicated frustration at having to make the same changes over and over because the base posts at CNC aren't getting updated.  

DingDingDingDingDing alarm bells!

That right there is inexcusable.

There is absolutely NO excuse for this.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shouldn't be that bad. We have a bunch of customers with that type of machines and it's usually pretty smooth sailing after few weeks...most of the time it's just a matter of training.  Jay K and Bill M might be great contacts at CNC Software for those types of issues IF it comes to training?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, if you got the Okuma LIKE WE RECOMMEND, you'd have Dr gcode to fall back on.:animier:

  • Like 1
  • Haha 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, mkd said:

Well, if you got the Okuma LIKE WE RECOMMEND, you'd have Dr gcode to fall back on.:animier:

Let me just add this machine ain't no Makino, not by a long shot...

We have to work to hold .001"...  On our Makinos we comp a tool, walk away, and hold .0001" all day long.  We can hold .0005" (.7500" +0/ -.0005) on long cylindrical bores using a ramped toolpath with a lollypop mill and .0003" circularity.  No can do on the Mori, I was spoiled.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is an example of an issue that isn't yet fixed and has given us a lot of grief.  We were drilling a skewed hole on the NTX and the drill wasn't going to the correct position by about 1/2".  We had other G68.1 issues in the past but we came up with quick fixes such as surface machining a skewed face instead of face milling it.  The issue was the machine and Mastercam are set to diameter for both upper and lower turrets for milling AND turning but Mastercam was posting in radius coordinates during G68.1 plane rotation.  When doing plane rotation the machine needs M-codes (M582) to put it in radius mode.  Once those were hand edited in it worked flawlessly.  Still waiting for the post fix however.

 

M582 (radius mode)

G49

G68.1 X0 Y0 Z0....

G69

M583 (diameter mode)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is an example of an issue that isn't yet fixed and has given us a lot of grief.  We were drilling a skewed hole on the NTX and the drill wasn't going to the correct position by about 1/2".  We had other G68.1 issues in the past but we came up with quick fixes such as surface machining a skewed face instead of face milling it.  The issue was the machine and Mastercam are set to diameter for both upper and lower turrets for milling AND turning but Mastercam was continuing to post in diameter coordinates during G68.1 plane rotation.  When doing plane rotation the machine needs M-codes (M582) to put it in radius mode.  Once those were hand edited in it worked flawlessly.  Still waiting for the post fix however.

 

M582 (radius mode)

G49

G68.1 X0 Y0 Z0....

G69

M583 (diameter mode)

 

Another annoying issue (not post related) is we were boring a large part with a lip on the ID of the front of the part (think 6" diameter coffee can with a 3" hole through the lid).  We got the correct tool for this but it caused X-axis overtravel issues with the lower turret.  We flipped the tool over 180 degrees about Z so the insert was facing upward and bored on the top of the bore.  The problem is that Mastercam reversed the spindle direction and there was not way to fix it without creating a new incorrect tool definition of hand editing the posted code.  In Mill there is a box where you can reverse the spindle from CW to CCW, the programmer has that control.  I can run a right handed end mill backwards if I so desire, it is up to MEEEE!  I can't thin of a reason I would want to do that but there might be a time where it will save my xxxx.  In lathe it isn't even an option and it is extremely frustrating.  Don't try to make the software too smart folks...  You tie my hands behind my back.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Bob W. said:

... The Mori AEs warned me about this and told me other shops in the area spent months trying to get Mastercam working correctly before giving up and switching to Esprit.  My thought was all that work couldn't have been for nothing and the issues surely made it back to CNC and the posts were updated but I was clearly wrong and the AEs were right.  It has played out pretty much as they said it would...

9999x out of 10000x the AE's are right. But there's always a handful of folks that think they know better. Don't let your ego get in the way of sound advise.

3 hours ago, Bob W. said:

Let me just add this machine ain't no Makino, not by a long shot...

We have to work to hold .001"...  On our Makinos we comp a tool, walk away, and hold .0001" all day long.  We can hold .0005" (.7500" +0/ -.0005) on long cylindrical bores using a ramped toolpath with a lollypop mill and .0003" circularity.  No can do on the Mori, I was spoiled.

You're comparing a Makino MILL to a Mori mill-turn?  :blink::blink::blink::blink::blink:

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Bob W. said:

We can hold .0005" (.7500" +0/ -.0005) on long cylindrical bores using a ramped toolparh

I can do that in my 2002 Haas.😅😅

  • Like 1
  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Bob W. said:

I am so sick and tired of Mastercam's mill turn and trying to get my DMG Mori NTX2000 to work right.  There are so many damn hand edits and it is risky (editing mistakes) and time consuming.  These aren't custom features, they are things like unclamping the B-axis for 5-axis machining and getting the G68.1 to post correctly.  Things that EVERY NTX 2000 CAN DO!!!  CNC Software, why the hell doesn't this xxxx work?  You are wasting my time!  The cost of my lost productivity far out paces the cost of your mill turn product.  You owe it to me to fix this crap and deliver a product that works.  I paid for it, now deliver.  If I had access to the post I could fix all these issues in a matter of hours, not months or years.

 

Can you share a before and after example of the code you need to produce versus what you get right now?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

    Bob I feel your pain!! We have a DMG Mori 5 axis Mill with turning capabilities its like pulling teeth to get basic features to work especially on the turning portion. Can't get a gundrill cycle to work. Its been almost a year working on a post. When updates take a month to be addressed! It has a  Heidenhain control some code posts as Fanuc gcode. Then I asked well what is the control looking for well isn't that what I paid you to do??? absolutely no support! 

  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, The Chipmaker said:

    Bob I feel your pain!! We have a DMG Mori 5 axis Mill with turning capabilities its like pulling teeth to get basic features to work especially on the turning portion. Can't get a gundrill cycle to work. Its been almost a year working on a post. When updates take a month to be addressed! It has a  Heidenhain control some code posts as Fanuc gcode. Then I asked well what is the control looking for well isn't that what I paid you to do??? absolutely no support! 

Postability has a very good post for DMU FD  TNC640 type machines. Just make sure you get the latest software update for the machine. Heidenhain and FD is still pretty new in US. We probably sold the first one about 1.5-2 years ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, cncappsjames said:

You're comparing a Makino MILL to a Mori mill-turn?  :blink::blink::blink::blink::blink:

Yep, where machine accuracy and stability are concerned.  The mill turn reminds me of a Haas, it is thermally unstable.  For the parts we are machining we are able to do two per day and over that time the lower turret X-axis drifts by 0.002".  We have charted it and we account for it but we shouldn't have to.  When we come in at 8:00am for the first part of a new day it is white knuckle as we are machining complex Ti castings and we can't just make another one.  The machine has scales on the XYZ axis for both upper and lower turrets.  The Mori AE has set up a probing routine we run throughout the day which exports data via dprint and it isn't pretty.  We have sent Excel files to Mori's engineers and they are scratching their heads as to what is wrong.  We have another round of on site testing in mid July to get to the bottom of it.  I believe an $800k machine should be able to hold .0002" all day long, especially with a coolant chiller, scales, and a shop that sits at 70 degrees F 24/7.

On the castings we machine there is an OD that is +/- 0.001" and we have non-conformances on 5-10% of the parts.  We are using 75% of the tolerance...  This is with a semi finishing pass at +0.010", stop the machine, probe the feature, comp the tool, and finish to size.  The pass to cut to the semi finishing size removes 0.010".  It is very frustrating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, cncappsjames said:

9999x out of 10000x the AE's are right. But there's always a handful of folks that think they know better. Don't let your ego get in the way of sound advise.

I was hoping for the best.  We have a lot of processes built around Mastercam and I really didn't want to start over.  Like I said, I DID buy Esprit per the AE's advice but after the training I decided the quickest path forward was with Mastercam.  When we did the Esprit training we programmed a fixture and after it was done I said "okay, now lets import the part file, place it on the fixture and program it as well."  He looked at me like I was crazy because you can't do that in Esprit.  Every operation is its own Esprit file.  We do have it and someday maybe I'll hire an Esprit programmer.  I really don't want any part of Esprit.  I'm also getting to the point where my motivation to conquer the world and learn everything machining is declining.  I want to work less and take the easy path.  If the Mastercam post worked well it would be the easy path by a mile.  The programming is a piece of cake, just a few details in how things are done but the meat and potatoes of it are all the same.  There just needs to be more effort and collaboration with machine manufacturers in getting the code posting how the machine needs it.

12 hours ago, mkd said:

I can do that in my 2002 Haas.😅😅

Yep, all day long...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Join us!

eMastercam - your online source for all things Mastercam.

Together, we are the strongest Mastercam community on the web with over 56,000 members, and our online store offers a wide selection of training materials for all applications and skill levels.

Follow us