2024 - Stock Setup (Yes, Another Thread)

[Chally72]

The intention is not to force a new machine group for every setup, for many reasons but Ron listed a big one with duplication of tool libraries and such. 

Fixture definition (and stock and position) for Simulation in 2023 and earlier used to be the same set for every machine group in a part. So if you were switching between machine groups, you'd have to redo those settings constantly, as well as if you were switching between different setups in the same machine group.

2024 was a step in moving towards saving these setups so that you're not redefining them every time for the clearly different scenarios you're encountering between setup changes and machine group changes. There's still more to be done, but the general idea they're moving towards is that you're defining these things once and then reusing the definitions wherever possible, to eliminate the need to constantly switch level set selections when examining different areas of your toolpath tree.

[neurosis]

2 hours ago, Chally72 said:

2024 was a step in moving towards saving these setups so that you're not redefining them every time for the clearly different scenarios you're encountering between setup changes and machine group changes. There's still more to be done, but the general idea they're moving towards is that you're defining these things once and then reusing the definitions wherever possible, to eliminate the need to constantly switch level set selections when examining different areas of your toolpath tree.

That's really nice to hear. I can't wait to see this working.

But why remove old functionality before the new functionality is, well, functional?  How many version will we have to wait until the work flow of programming multiple parts/operations in one machine group is finally 'convenient'? 

[OVodov]

The reason why I hated Box is when  Stock Model was used as a stock for Verification and became dirty, Stock for Verification creates this Box and not calling Stock Setup which makes more sense.

 

[crazy^millman]

1 hour ago, neurosis said:

That's really nice to hear. I can't wait to see this working.

But why remove old functionality before the new functionality is, well, functional?  How many version will we have to wait until the work flow of programming multiple parts/operations is one machine group is finally 'convenient'? 

I have to agree why? We need methods and processes that make us more productive when doing our work. Until they can be fully implemented reducing our methods hurts our abilities and a companies bottom line. Walking the line of adding new things to the software that make things easier is hard when removing things in the process that make it harder until they are ready. i refused to use View sheets for many version until they had matured. I abandoned JOB setup in Mill years ago because it didn't suit my needs doing the work I do. Hopefully the next update to 2024 adds this much needed ability or 2024 might not get a lot of adoption until it is.

5 minutes ago, OVodov said:

The reason why I hated Box is when  Stock Model was used as a stock for Verification and became dirty, Stock for Verification creates this Box and not calling Stock Setup which makes more sense.

 

Another reason why i didn't use it was the conflict with stock models.

[neurosis]

Right now, I don't use any of the newer functionality in the machine group setup.  I don't because it feels like it's meant to be a set and forget. When I'm programming on 8 different parts/models, each with several operations, setting these doesn't make a lot of sense.  I'm constantly having to change them and they're inconvenient to change.  That's where that consolidated functionality window became very convenient.  

I'm not sure what the intended work flow is in this new machine group setup area, especially when you are programming several different parts, using several different sizes of material, several different fixtures for all of the different operations.  What is the intended workflow in these situations? 

Another unrelated question. Why was the "tools" added to the machine group setup area? 

[crazy^millman]

29 minutes ago, neurosis said:

Right now, I don't use any of the newer functionality in the machine group setup.  I don't because it feels like it's meant to be a set and forget. When I'm programming on 8 different parts/models, each with several operations, setting these doesn't make a lot of sense.  I'm constantly having to change them and they're inconvenient to change.  That's where that consolidated functionality window became very convenient.  

I'm not sure what the intended work flow is in this new machine group setup area, especially when you are programming several different parts, using several different sizes of material, several different fixtures for all of the different operations.  What is the intended workflow in these situations? 

Another unrelated question. Why was the "tools" added to the machine group setup area? 

Tools was already there just not in the layout it is now. What drives me crazy is no where for holders. Why do we ave two separate database for tools and holder? I put everything in one and use it. A lot of our customers have headed in that direction also, yet the process is still not following customers uses for doing the programming process. The whole machine group layout clearly shows that is also the case. Make it how someone thinks it should be and not what is best for customers. Or we are really the fringe of users and the majority only every program one part at a time and what we do it so extreme we will either have to adapt or stick with a version that supports the way we do it.

[OVodov]

1 hour ago, crazy^millman said:

Tools was already there just not in the layout it is now. What drives me crazy is no where for holders. Why do we ave two separate database for tools and holder? I put everything in one and use it. A lot of our customers have headed in that direction also, yet the process is still not following customers uses for doing the programming process. The whole machine group layout clearly shows that is also the case. Make it how someone thinks it should be and not what is best for customers. Or we are really the fringe of users and the majority only every program one part at a time and what we do it so extreme we will either have to adapt or stick with a version that supports the way we do it.

100% agree

[MrFish]

On 6/9/2023 at 5:41 AM, crazy^millman said:

Tools was already there just not in the layout it is now. What drives me crazy is no where for holders. Why do we ave two separate database for tools and holder? I put everything in one and use it. A lot of our customers have headed in that direction also, yet the process is still not following customers uses for doing the programming process. The whole machine group layout clearly shows that is also the case. Make it how someone thinks it should be and not what is best for customers. Or we are really the fringe of users and the majority only every program one part at a time and what we do it so extreme we will either have to adapt or stick with a version that supports the way we do it.

This software seems to be getting aligned to "new" users more with each version, often losing some of the functionality that the long term power users like/need.

[SuperHoneyBadger]

On 6/7/2023 at 5:05 PM, Chally72 said:

... there is a Stock Setup Override in 2024 to explicitly allow this behavior...

Was out sick end of last week, thanks so much for your prompt reply, it was EXACTLY what I needed. Also, the stock model in-situ functionality you mentioned will be leveraged heavily.

 

On 6/8/2023 at 7:43 AM, nperry said:

What I don't understand about your scenario is when are your OP1 paths actually going dirty? What's the actual moment ("activating" as you put it) where your paths are going dirty?

Right before I verified OP2: I went to Stock Setup and set my OP1 Stock Model to the active stock, because I was unaware of the new functionalities.

[Newbeeee™]

19 hours ago, MrFish said:

This software seems to be getting aligned to "new" users more with each version, often losing some of the functionality that the long term power users like/need.

If I was a new user, I'd be wanting to learn all that great "power user functionality"....

[Jobnt]

27 minutes ago, Newbeeee™ said:

If I was a new user, I'd be wanting to learn all that great "power user functionality"....

You're not like kids today, Terry. Kids today want everything done for them. In general, they'd rather not have to put in effort to make something work. Sooo glad I instilled strong work ethic with my boys. 

[byte]

I think there is a lot of room for improvement in the GUI,

I would like to be able to do everything from the first page that we used to be able to again if possible, it's a nuisance have to toggle through extra menus

[MrFish]

As I begin to use 2024 in my day to day programming the biggest annoyance for me so far is the selecting of fixtures. My work flow with mostly 5 axis programming is to setup the  machine group setup, including stock and fixtures, then program Op1, verify/simulate, create a stock model and program Op2, often requiring soft jaws/different fixturing, I then use the stock model as stock to verify/simulate Op2. In MC2023 I would then use the Simulator options in the Toolpaths manager to toggle the Op1/Op2 fixtures off/on and verify/simulate Op2. Now with MC2024 I have to go back into the machine group setup and delete my Op1 fixtures and select Op2 fixtures. Then as i like to save my file with Op1 active I have to go back in again and delete Op2 fixtures and reselect Op1 fixtures !, this is time consuming and frustrating !!

CNC software, could we please get the ability to 1, enter the fixtures tab directly , maybe below the stock setup icon in the machine group ?, 2. Be able to toggle on/off the fixtures we want active without having to delete/reselect them each time ?

 

[Jobnt]

35 minutes ago, byte said:

I think there is a lot of room for improvement in the GUI,

I would like to be able to do everything from the first page that we used to be able to again if possible, it's a nuisance have to toggle through extra menus

Hahahahahahahahahaha, how long did it take them to fix THIS?

 

[byte]

6 minutes ago, Jobnt said:

Hahahahahahahahahaha, how long did it take them to fix THIS?

 

none of that stuff was ever a problem for me, it's the improvements to stuff like stock setup that is slowing me down

[Jobnt]

3 minutes ago, byte said:

none of that stuff was ever a problem for me, it's the improvements to stuff like stock setup that is slowing me down

That is not a work-flow-stopping issue. It's more of an extremely embarrassing "Holy xxxx who the hell let THAT get by QC?" issue. And it lingered. For years. Like when a dog eats broccoli and starts non-stop farting afterwards.

[neurosis]

27 minutes ago, MrFish said:

As I begin to use 2024 in my day to day programming the biggest annoyance for me so far is the selecting of fixtures.

 

I have other minor complaints as well, but this is exactly what I've been complaining about for the last several days. 

[Newbeeee™]

1 hour ago, MrFish said:

 Now with MC2024 I have to go back into the machine group setup and delete my Op1 fixtures and select Op2 fixtures. Then as i like to save my file with Op1 active I have to go back in again and delete Op2 fixtures and reselect Op1 fixtures !, this is time consuming and frustrating !!

HolyMoly. That's some grade 1 BS right there, that REALLY wants an urgent patch to fix it.

Yes - toggle on/off just the same as a level. Surely?

[neurosis]

56 minutes ago, Newbeeee™ said:

HolyMoly. That's some grade 1 BS right there, that REALLY wants an urgent patch to fix it.

Yes - toggle on/off just the same as a level. Surely?

It's total b/s. 

They've been leading the software in a direction that made sense for  having multiple operations under one machine definition and then ripped the carpet out.  lol

Hopefully they plan on adding toggles to the fixture area so you can add the levels and then toggle them on and off.  That would be a lot better than what they have now. 

[gcode]

2 hours ago, MrFish said:

Now with MC2024 I have to go back into the machine group setup and delete my Op1 fixtures and select Op2 fixtures. Then as i like to save my file with Op1 active I have to go back in again and delete Op2 fixtures and reselect Op1 fixtures !, this is time consuming and frustrating !!

I use a separate Machine Group for each operation.

Been doing it this way for years

[neurosis]

6 minutes ago, gcode said:

I use a separate Machine Group for each operation.

Been doing it this way for years

Is this the way the software is intended to be used?  When you go in for official training, is this how they train you to use it? 

I've never used the software that way.  The only time I use separate machine definitions is if I'm working on either different material, needing to use a different library of tools, an operation is on a different machine (vertical vs horizontal). 

I've spent a little time with the local reps but it was way back in the X6 era and they told me that in the old days, every operation was a different part file.  ugh.  Messing with X, at least on the parts we were working on at the time, they had me create the different operations under the same machine definition.  Back then, the software would crash if you had too many things going on so.. 

[OVodov]

28 minutes ago, neurosis said:

Is this the way the software is intended to be used?  When you go in for official training, is this how they train you to use it? 

I've never used the software that way.  The only time I use separate machine definitions is if I'm working on either different material, needing to use a different library of tools, an operation is on a different machine (vertical vs horizontal). 

I've spent a little time with the local reps but it was way back in the X6 era and they told me that in the old days, every operation was a different part file.  ugh.  Messing with X, at least on the parts we were working on at the time, they had me create the different operations under the same machine definition.  Back then, the software would crash if you had too many things going on so.. 

You can use Mastercam in many ways, it just your own preferences. I use different Machine definitions on a part and a fixture within one file, even if they made from the same material. Flexibility it’s a prone of Mastercam, but also it’s a con.

I had an experience with SoliCam, Setup - how they call Machine definition is can be set the only one way for the whole part machining.

[gcode]

38 minutes ago, neurosis said:

When you go in for official training, is this how they train you to use it

My training has been 47 years at Hard Knocks U.

[neurosis]

2 minutes ago, OVodov said:

You can use Mastercam in many ways, it just your own preferences. I use different Machine definitions on a part and a fixture within one file, even if they made from the same material. Flexibility it’s a prone of Mastercam, but also it’s a con.

I had an experience with SoliCam, Setup - how they call Machine definition is can be set the only one way for the whole part machining.

 

I know that you "can".  I'm asking because if that is the way the software is intended to be used, it makes sense at least as to why they are steering the software in that direction and we're probably not going to have a choice but to just get used to it.

 

[MrFish]

50 minutes ago, gcode said:

I use a separate Machine Group for each operation.

Been doing it this way for years

I don't do this as i want an update to a tool to be reflected across all the operation groups, but this is the beauty of machining, many different ways to get the same out come with each having their own style.