Hurdles in using a dedicated programmer

[Rory]

Currently we use Mastercam only for the “specials” and all other programming is done at the machine controls.

We would like to set up our shop with 1 or 2 dedicated programmers to do about 80 - 90% of the programming.

Has anybody been through the process of setting up a system like this? If so, what kind of problems did you experience?

[Diablo God]

Documentation is always a hurdle to succumb. Since every programmer I know has different philosophy and techniques for accomplishing the same task. Be strict on setup sheets and tool lists. Or do what I do, if you do production. And save all files into a directory with inspection tool lists, quick setup sheet explaining procedures. So if one guy is sick, the other can pick it up more easily.

 

I like to also have all files in one central file server rather than letting programmers stash files all other the network. Makes it way easier for backups, and finding old work. We have 3 programmers here, and 1-2 setup men who are learning. Setup men are a great way to make a expensive programmer cheaper. Keep the programmer kind a supervisor of his setup men. You dont want a expensive guy setting up tools, and offsets. No reason why he cant delegate the work.

 

Basicaly we have 2 cnc lathes, 3 cnc verticals, and 3 cnc horizontals. And we are able to keep them all running by this method. One programmer per machine would be a waste in my opinion. Less it is something super intensiuve and detail oriented. Then keep your best guy on the job.

 

As for programming at the machine, I dont know your work. But I frown down on this. Nothing can really be hand typed in faster than wipping something up in mcam. That and tracking files made at the machine is a headache imho. Others might disagree. I even have a pretty strict policy aboutmaking postable programs. Since I hate getting into someone elses work one year later, to find out they did a crap load of hand edits. Making any changes cumbersome.

 

Jim

[mayday]

quote:

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what kind of problems did you experience

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Its more like what kind of experience can you find. but you can do it. theres 2 of us gramming up to 8 machines based of job complexity. from a 16" x 20" vert to a 13' x 46' horizontal

[Toolfab]

I have 5 cnc mills here that I am the only programmer for. We, by nature, are a specail shop. 1~5 pieces is the norm. We have quite a bit of repeat work, but the majority is all new tools that we have never made before. Being the sole programmer, I formulated a setup sheet that is the same for every machine. Familiarity is key when trying to have one person program for multiple people.

 

We do not use "setup" guys. Our operators are very well trained and are not considered PHD's (push here dummy) They get my setup sheet, setup there own tools, setup there own machine, and run the program that is given to them (then i fix what i screwed up in the first place).

 

Jim has it right about saving in one spot on the network. Having your DNC search a specific folder for a specific macine is kinda useless here. we have 3 Maho's and 2 Haas's All the Maho progs go in one folder and all the Haas progs go in a different one, but all under the same root folder.

 

I think the use of "setup" people is a gaint waste of money. If the person running the machine can't touch off a tool or setup up a vise, do you really want that person playing with your really expensive machines? That is just my opinion from the situation that I am in, it may be different else were.

 

Good luck to you..

[crazy^millman]

quote:

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As for programming at the machine, I dont know your work. But I frown down on this. Nothing can really be hand typed in faster than wipping something up in mcam. That and tracking files made at the machine is a headache imho. Others might disagree. I even have a pretty strict policy aboutmaking postable programs. Since I hate getting into someone elses work one year later, to find out they did a crap load of hand edits. Making any changes cumbersome.

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To me that about sums it up.

[Rekd™]

Ron Branch

[Code_Breaker]

I am the sr. programmer here, and have two other dedicated programmers (primarily one for electrodes and one for metal). I have one other programmer/operator for hard machining. Also, have a programmer/operator on the lathe. We have two other operators who have a good feel for MasterCAM and will be sending three others to MC school starting on the 26th. We have four seats of mill3 L3, 2 solids, and one lathe L1 (all v9). In the process of buying another seat (want two more...budget, ya know...)

 

quote:

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Documentation is always a hurdle to succumb.

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+1000

 

It took me a few weeks, but I completed a standardized setup sheet using HTML that I got on-line and modified to what we needed. I did this by surveying all the operators and programmers. Now, everyone is one the same page with documentation and procedures. We have also standardize the tooling .

 

Just some thoughts . . .

 

HTHAW

HF

 

Code_Breaker

 

[edit] Man, am I slow . . . there was no post when I started typing

[Diablo God]

Tool fab---

 

when I say setup guyz, yes these guys do run the machine to. So yes they are overtrained operators. Takes out the boredom for them

 

Jim

[Philcott]

quote:

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Ron Branch

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???

 

Matt,

 

That caught my eye as well. There is an unexplained transformation going on. You don't suppose The crazy millman is pre-sampling the youngen's sippy cup and mellowing on us do you?

 

Maybe with Winnie on vacation there will be MPDs coming out all over.

 

to you Ron.

 

Phil

[crazy^millman]

For some strange Reason people look at Crazy and hold it against me so I figured WTF I put my real name in the Sig and why not just change it to the Name I go by that way my comments are easier to pass on when my name is put with it.

[Rekd™]

Phil, you killin' me meng! If it were meh sippy cup, he'd be headed in the other direction.

 

Ron, I must agree. Names people give themselves often portray a different meaning to those looking at the name. (Myself included, but quite frankly, my dear, I don't give a feces.) Ron Branch looks much more professional, but IMNSHO does not fit you, (this is meant in nothing but a good way, my friend). At any rate, it's all good and we will accept you no matter what you call yourself. (Unless, of course, you gain multiple accounts and true MPD's. Alas, there can be only one.)

 

'Rekd

[Midwest]

 

 

Welcome to the forum Ron Branch

 

[GreggT]

I too am very interested in doing this. Does anyone have sample setup documentation that they would be willing to share?

[crazy^millman]

Well Matt as you know all to well sometimes we have to consider things that effect how we are looked upon. I am just tring to put a more postive lite on transpired events and in doing so hopefully put myself in a better standing that helps my kids.

 

I appericate your comments but I am only changing my name to come across to others as me and yeah still do crazy things and yeah still got a few screws lose but when I have to think about more than myself I don't care to lose a nick on here besides those who know me personally know what I am about and that to me speaks louder than any name every could.

 

Besides I tired the different nicks and got a resounding not happening so to each it own.

 

Sorry for the Highjack GreggT look in the TEXT folder on the FTP and you should see a few HTML example different thing I and others have played with on the FREE one that is avaialbe on the web site. Look at the top of the page for Tools and the download is there.

 

HTH

[GreggT]

Thanks Ron

[Rory]

Thanks for the replies

[Code_Breaker]

I have a HTML setup sheet that is working, but need tweaking (about 98% done). I can put it on the FTP site, just say where. Maybe a new folder should be created callth SETUP SHEET?

 

Or I can e-mail it to you.

 

Code_Breaker

[GreggT]

Sorry to be a bone-head. I'm new to MC. Do I have to pay an additional $250 to produce documentation? My dealer told me this was included but I haven't got to the documentation section in the tutorial yet. I went to the .ftp site and under the text folder found HTML2CM_.htm, is this a setup document or am I looking in the wrong place? Doesn't look right to me but I was just viewing it with IE.

 

The $250 product is really sexy, but I thought this was included.

 

Thanks for the help, be patient, I'll come up to speed in 5 or 6 years, I was in the special class so it might take me a little longer than most.

[Rory]

Core_Breaker,

 

I would be interested in seeing it.

Will you e-mail it or put it on the FTP?

 

Rory

[GreggT]

Code_Breaker;

 

Please post files to .ftp. Would love to see them.

 

Thanks

[G Caputo]

Rory,

 

Probably the biggest hurdle I have had and am still trying to overcome is the machinists and forman on the floor. It seems that they always want to nitpik every chance they get. "Why is it doing this? blah blah blah". Knock on wood, but I have only scrapped one part in the 1-1/2 years I have done this, which does help in keeping everyone in harmony together.

 

We have a machine team meeting once a week, and for the last 6 months, I have been bringing the prints on what I will be programming and we all discuss different time saving ideas on how to do a job (set ups, tooling, etc). This has been a huge benifit for coming up with ideas and for keeping everyone on the same page.

 

We use one server specifically set up for our cnc files, along with a database for the machine, job number, program number, print number etc. This was in place before I went to the "cam castle" as everyone calls it.

 

Another thing we do is right a procedure called an "a" file which explains each set up, tools used and operations. Basically a set up sheet (and when I get some time and brains to figure out how to get mastercam to do it I will, this is still our old school method).

 

We also have a spreadsheet set up that our formen enter what jobs need programming and there priority and I work from there to give them programs.

 

I program 5 horizontals that I know very well which is also a big benefit.

 

quote:

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As for programming at the machine, I dont know your work. But I frown down on this. Nothing can really be hand typed in faster than wipping something up in mcam.

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I still have to agree, yet disagree on this though. If it's a simple to medium part, that I don't have to have a "formal" program for i can crank it out in a hurry at the machine control. And no way am I bashing Mcam, I said formal, meaning program, run and get it done. That is the biggest hurdle I am and still trying to overcome is all of the extra "secretarial" work I have to do so that just about anyone can do the job with what I provided them.

 

m2c,

 

Greg

[TS53]

I will throw in my 2 cents here. We have 3 seats of 3-d. There are 3 "regular" users who both program and run their own programs. We also have 3-4 more guys who are capable of writing programs and running them. This seems to be working fairly well. We do try to stick to fairly consistant work patterns. (like commonly used layers, tools, etc.) This way we can pull up someone elses program and make sense of it.

 

At the last place I worked, I was the only programmer. I used many of the above listed techniques, like a common setup sheet, using the same methods as much as possible, and in general just keeping everyone involved informed.

 

I really like the idea of an html setup sheet. That seems to be the more effecient way of putting more usefull data for the operator. (even if I am the operator 3 weeks from now!)

 

Tim

[Rekd™]

Gregg, I've made a few setup sheet templates. (The first one, as a matter of fact, was used as a model to create Mill2.set by CNC. )

 

I've made some with the HTML stuff and didn't like it because I allways get meh arse kicked when trying to format HTML to print nicely.

 

I started to make one when VBS was released a while back, but haven't had time to work on it. (This method, or a combination of this and others, may be a very viable alternative for you.)

 

My best one so far is done with a .set template I made, and works with an Access database I made that imports it and formats it to a nice database form, and prints them to a report for the guys on the floor. This one is very nice, and didn't cost me anything but the time to make it. (Which, btw, was a very long time.)

 

There's lots of ways to do this, which one will depend on your preference. If you're not inclined to do it yourself, then it might be worth it to offer up the $250.00 for the HTML one, or mayhaps discuss it with other members that might be willing to part with there's. (There are several different ones made by eMC members that are very good)

 

Bottom line is, the sky's the limit. And you're not forced to buy it, but have that option.

 

'Rekd

[Scott Bond]

quote:

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Rory,

Probably the biggest hurdle I have had and am still trying to overcome is the machinists and forman on the floor.

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A newly hired programmer for this spot will have a rough time of it if the team refuses to support the change.

[DavidB]

Where i work I program every toolpath in MC.The operators can not do any changing on the Machines Control because of tracabilty.Its all Aerospace stuff.If I want to improve an old program that was done B.C I have to put in a PCR

(Procedure Change Requist).

 

You should have seen the look on the guys Faces when I wanted to take a steel job they had been Machineing for 10 years and cut it dry.There chins hit the floor.

 

The day I cut it with new programes and DRY that I had made,I had all the staff watching.I think they where waiting for a melt down.After the roughing (Blue chips flying everywhere) I said to the big Boss put your hand on the Part,he could not beleive it was not HOT.

An operator came up to me later and said "I have been here for 30 years and I have never seen anything like it".

 

We have trademen setting up the machines to a work plan that comes out with each work order.

It includes step by step method of manufacture from raw billet to out the door,Tool sheets,Program numbers ect ect.

 

My thinking is lately after the operator has obtained there first off and it has been sighned of by an inspector its just then a matter of putting in a new billet and then pushing the green button.It seems a waste to have good tradsmen operating the machine and deburing between cycles.