Maintenance expiring

[mowens]

As a contract programmer, I agree there are more Mastercam jobs; however, if you go to the contract job hunter website cjhunter and search for nc programmer you will see they are looking for Catia on almost all of the listings. My experience is that Catia jobs pay quite a bit better, maybe because it's such b!@#h to learn. Also companies using Catia are usually doing complex 5 axis work. For 3 axis, Mastercam is better by far, IMHO. We do quite a bit of nested parts where I am now, and I can do in 10 minutes what would take an hour in Catia V5. I know this because I use both here, and I have more Catia experience than Mastercam.

[DrewG]

PETE--Yes I did meet you and your company that year at EASTEC, and all of your help was nothing short of exceptional. I dealt with a gentleman by the name of Frank Lussier who helped me out tremendously!!! He spent alot of time with me and I wanted to buy the CIMCO system from him/SFA, however, this "John Curry" (CIMCO Factory ??)got involoved from Canada, and I was forced to go thru him. He was the absolute worst!!! According to both Frank and Glenn Sharp, he screwed me with the pricing, sub rate components, and than left me "high and dry" with no support. I have had nothing but problems with communications, and still do to this day. I have been using the cheap, non industrial, "Linksys" hub for the wireless comunications, and everyday, the machines show "off line" and do not communicate. Glenn's fix is to shut down the hub, go to every machine and shut down each wireless receiver, wait 5 minutes, and than go back to every machine, turn on the wireless receivers, go to the server and turn on the Linksys hub, and start CIMCO server over again. It works everytime. But to have to do this everyday just to get code out to each machine is an absolute joke!!! I've been screaming to Glenn for support, however he states there is no CIMCO support for the New Jersey/New York area. The hardware they sent could've been purchased at Best Buy for a total of less than $500.00. I know I found it all there and priced it. No industrial quality stuff here. For 10K plus, I deserve alot more, period!!!

Do you service the New Jersey area??? Thanks!!!!

[Greg Williams]

quote:

---

My experience is that Catia jobs pay quite a bit better, maybe because it's such b!@#h to learn. Also companies using Catia are usually doing complex 5 axis work.

---

I feel that this is a very valid point and it stands for UG and Pro-e as well.

 

The big players generally don't go out of there way to sell a single license to a company.

they are out there chasing the Boeings of the world. There thought process is why bother selling 1 license to to Joe Blow when you can sell 50 to company XYZ. for the same effort.

50 licenses equalls 50 times training.

[Guest]

Greg,

 

The problem with that philosophy though is, there are only so many "large" companies to which you can sell your product.

 

Reminds me of a conversation I had with Mark Rief, VP CAM Development, UGS. He asked me how they could convince the small shop users to use NX.

 

Simple, you can't. It is to pricey, to training intensive, small shops won't take the time or have the money to spend on 30k in training and it's not really geared to doing varied types of work well.

 

Those postions pay higher because most of them are contract positions. Compare what a contracter using MC and a contractor using Pro-E, Catia, NX they are all quite similiar.

 

Like someone else said, If your going to compare make sure you compare apples to apples.

 

[ 11-23-2005, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: jmparis ]

[Rob Quality]

It's funny when you say things like mastercam or ug or solid works is the most widely use cam software package (for example), but the question is, is it the best now?. How old is mastercam?? and how long has it been around???? thats like saying Elvis has sold the most records in the world so he must be without a doubt the best singer???? eeerrr hes dead thou isn't he? and how long has his songs been around? so how can you compare him to someone who been around for 2 years and sounds as good but because hes only sold 10,000 records hes useless?????? Come on men we aren't in the play ground at school anymore you don't have to prove who has the biggest tool now. Do you?

 

Cad/Cam rocks!

[DrewG]

Reminds me of a conversation I had with Mark Rief, VP CAM Development, UGS. He asked me how they could convince the small shop users to use NX.

Simple, you can't. It is to pricey, to training intensive, small shops won't take the time or have the money to spend on 30k in training and it's not really geared to doing varied types of work well.

 

I totally disagree!!!

You aren't comparing apples to apples when you compare UG vs any other CAM system. UG bundles their full CAD system, 5-axis stuff, turning, milling, mill/turn, a post builder that has to be seen and used to believe, a full online training system called CAST which YOU control AND CAN LEARN AT YOUR SPEED AND ON YOUR TIME, CHAPTER BY CHAPTER, SUBJECT BY SUBJECT, and even more more when you purchase a seat.

 

Now compare the price of buying most other CAM systems (Mastercam, Esprit, Edgecam, etc..), who charge you for mill level 1, another charge for mill level 3, another charge for 5 axis capability, another charge for 2 axis turning, another charge for 4 or more axis turning, another charge for mill/turn, another charge for solids, more charges for developing posts, and on top of all this, you still don't have a CAD system, so now add a seat of Solidworks or Pro-E, add the extra's for FEA and FEM analysis, and now compare all those costs of that to a seat of UG NX3/4. This would be comparing apples to apples.

 

I'm a small shop, and I have a quote right in front of me. UG is aggressively trying to get into the smaller shops, and are doing a much better job than previously. In fact, I know of three other small shops who recently purchased UG after looking at all the competitors. If they can get my mill/turn running in their ISV (simulation), I will be buying UG shortly. I have been using it for several months, and everyone else in the shop who has started with it loves it. Because we design and build our own products, having a complete system (CAD, CAM, FEA and FEM analysis) would work best for us. One seat of UG with all their design capability, 5 axis toolpath, etc.. was only slightly more than what I paid for a single seat of mill/turn from Esprit.

We also spent time looked at CATIA V5, however you cannot compare it to UG. They both are excellent for design and 5 axis toolpaths, however UG sets itself apart when it comes to simple 2 axis work. CATIA may be excellent for 5 axis parts, however, they have very, very limited toolpath options if you wanted to program a simple part. UG NX3/4 on the other hand is not only easy to program simple parts, but it also offers alot of different toolpath options.

Everyone at my facility liked UG NX3 the best out of all the CAM systems we tried and our currently using. It is NOT at all difficult to pick up and learn as many make it out to seem.

Now, if you don't need a CAD system, produce 5 axis work, no multi-tasking machines, or only either mill or turn, buying UG would be way over kill and you probably would be wasting money. You could buy a simple CAM system and do just fine.

 

[ 11-23-2005, 10:17 PM: Message edited by: DrewG ]

[gcode]

Drew, How do posts work with UG? We have one seat of Catia V5 and getting working posts can be quite a chore. We bought a seat of ICAM for post development, and between the purchase and sending me to Florida for a week, we've spent a small fotune.

[Greg Williams]

UG has a Graphical interface product called Postbuilder. The base code is TCL, for most custom commands a small amount of TCL knowledge is required.

If you can edit a Mastercam post you can edit TCL

For 1-5 axis the post is a single entity, for more axis the posts are linked together.

 

I will load a screen dump when I get to work tomorrow

[DrewG]

G-CODE--Are you using NX3 or their newest version NX4(If it hasn't been released yet, it's do out momenterily)? As Greg stated UG offers a graphical interface called "Postbuilder". I am not saying this being biased, but this "post builder" is the best post product I've yet to see in any CAM system. You have to see it to fully appreciate it. It actually asks you questions concerning the machine and how you want the post to work, and builds a post step by step. I cannot say I have tried it for any complex 5 axis toolpaths, however it is very basic to build a standard post. I believe this has only been around since NX3 (released last year). Hopefully Greg will be able to load some pic's, and if not I will try and get some up if you care to see what it's about.

As for the ICAM deal, I spent some time working with the trying to get a post for the Nakamura a year or two ago. They were real "gung ho" at first, however after sending them all the statistics on the machine, they basically bailed out. They couldn't give me a quote to build the post, and I wasn't about to wait and get a final bill at the end.

[Guest]

Here G, here are some screen shots of UG post builder.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Post build actually is a great idea, graphically build a post. I'd say 75% of it works really, really well. Here in lies the problam and I'm sure at least Greg will agree with this. Any modifications you want to make outside of what is available inside of postbuilder must be done thru TCL. What is available thru postbuilder, basic G-codes, you can modify and change them if you need specific output with a command. If you want to add high-pressure coolant on/off command you must write a UDE, user defined event, within the UG enviorment file and then you must add the TCL command into the post to be able to interpret the UDE. UG offers a 4 day Post builder course, that is it. There is no support for tcl thru GTAC, their BBS is available but it appears to have maybe 20 members, I'm sure there are more but only about 20 posters. Help is not frothcoming on this topic unless you dive in and do it yourself.

 

I do disagree a bit with Greg on the "If you can edit a mastercam post you can handle TCL." TCL is a higher language, it is a derivitve of C. Basic stuff you could probably handle with a little tinkering but if you want to really get in into it, you're in for a deep ride.

 

[ 11-24-2005, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: jmparis ]

[Guest]

quote:

---

You aren't comparing apples to apples when you compare UG vs any other CAM system. UG bundles their full CAD system, 5-axis stuff, turning, milling, mill/turn, a post builder that has to be seen and used to believe, a full online training system called CAST which YOU control AND CAN LEARN AT YOUR SPEED AND ON YOUR TIME, CHAPTER BY CHAPTER, SUBJECT BY SUBJECT, and even more more when you purchase a seat.

---

No Drew, they do not bundle it all together. EVERYTHING with UG is another module. You can buy a complete bundle for certain, I'd hate to see the total cost but normally eveything is available this way.

 

CAD/engineering seat 1 price

CAM seat Added price

Cavity Mill another price

Mold/Die pac another price

Fixed axis surf mill another price

Multi-axis mill another price

CAST another price

Studio another price

Free form modeling another price

assemblies another price

 

OH and BTW, post builder, is another price almost 5k itself plus maintenance.

 

and it goes on and on.

 

My seat of just CAM, I use one of the available engineering licenses, with everything I needed to have was just about 24k plus almost 4k a yr in maintenence fees.

 

[ 11-24-2005, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: jmparis ]

[gcode]

I don't use UG. We have one seat of Catia V5

and a seat of ICAM to build posts for it.

ICAM is amazing stuff. It will support up to 12 axis of motion. I've done three 5X posts with it

and getting the machine geomtry described is simple and easy. The hard part is getting the gcode in the format you want. That requires

macros, reading and writing memory stacks and

all the stuff that goes with BASIC or "C"

programming. A good code cruncher probably finds it quit simple. I'm not a code cruncher.

I stuggle, but I get the job done.

 

Our seat of CAIA cost about $55K, the ICAM was $15K. Add another $10-$15K for Catia and ICAM classes and my company has a nice piece of change

tied up for one seat of CAM.

 

The CATIA V5/ICAM combo is a very powerful piece of software, buy I don't think its fair to compare

X to CATIA head to head. The annual maintenace

on our 1 seat of CATIA would by a seat of X.

 

I don't know a lot about UG. Drew tells us its the best thing since sliced bread, Jim is giving us the fine print.

Last month Boeing was "encouraging" us to buy a software package called "Teamcenter".

The salesman was also the local UG rep. I asked him what full 5X seat of UG cost and he said about $25K.

I thought that was pretty reasonable, but after reading this thread, I'm guessing he forgot to include the CAD package and the POST writer.

CATIA is the same way. They have 3 different levels of Design alone. The list of available modules fills 3 printed pages. You could spend

$250K on a seat of CATIA and not have all the modules.

One thing that REALLY PISSES me off about CATIA.

Both CATIA and Solidworks are owned by Dessault,

but they can't read each others files.

Solidworks can read ProE, UG, step, DFX, DWG, etc. It can ever write native dwg files, but it can't read or write CATAI .model or CATpart files. You need to spend $5K on a converter for that

 

[ 11-24-2005, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: gcode ]

[SRT Mike]

I am new to the forum but I was kinda shocked reading this post. Some pretty WILD claims such as...

 

"30 day money back guarantee is not as good as a trial version and shows they just want your money"

 

"the number of job openings posted for the various CAM systems has ANY bearing on how good those systems are"

 

And "you get what you pay for" in CAM software. I have wide experience with OneCNC and MasterCAM. Right now we use MasterCAM because we already had it, but we are not paying for any maintenance or future releases. Its just too expensive when you compare it to OneCNC. Honestly, if you completely take price out of the equation, it seems that MasterCAM allows for a bit more control, whereas OneCNC is more graphical and does a lot for you. If you want to go in and adjust toolpaths and make small edits, you can do that in OneCNC but its not as easy as doing it in MCAM. Then again we are using V9. I am not sure about X. Its funny because for all the talk about "make sure they give you a free 90 day license". I was not able to get that from MCAM. They told me I could try out a demo CD but I cant post with it. OneCNC wouldnt give me a free trial version either but did let me do 2 demos where they took my part files and did the CAM (and I DID try to stump them with tough CAM problems we faced - they did pretty well with it).

 

Anyone who dismisses XR based on the cost, or how many pirate copies are on eBay, or how many jobs show up on monster.com is, sorry to say, a fool. Thats like refusing a $50k a year pay raise because you assume there MUST be something you're missing in the deal.

 

And before I get flamed - why am I here? Well, we havent bought OneCNC XR yet. I want to try out X before I make a final decision. Right now I am leaning towards XR because I havent seen anything it cant do that MCAM can do, and I have not heard anything to explain why MCAM is worth the extra money. THen again, I havent tried X and when I do, maybe I will really like it.

[Guest]

Another noob with an opinion, wonderful, just what we need around here.

 

Welcome to the forum SRT Mike, you picked on hell of a thread to "jump in" on.

 

quote:

---

And before I get flamed - why am I here?

---

Good question.

 

[gcode]

quote:

---

And before I get flamed - why am I here?

---

OneCNC salesman slumming on the Mastercam forum ???

[Greg Williams]

quote:

---

I do disagree a bit with Greg on the "If you can edit a mastercam post you can handle TCL." TCL is a higher language, it is a derivitve of C. Basic stuff you could probably handle with a little tinkering but if you want to really get in into it, you're in for a deep ride.

---

Jim,

 

After thought you are correct on this one. TCL is more in depth than MCAM post logic. Luckily I have been given a few crash courses in C++ which made the process much easier.

 

ICAM = Ouch.

[crazy^millman]

I have taken a look at the I-CAM and it is very powerful. I have not set-up a post set but using app source is to me reading the NCI from Mastercam. If I were lucky enough to get into Catia or UG I would like it just for the challage. I just have done so mcu hwith Mastercam and seen the hard way that it makes me hard to go Mastercam is not a powerul CAM program and capable program. It is the best I do not know, but if it gets the job done and it does what you company needs then each has to base the decision to stay with it or move on with a case by case decision. ONECNC to me is like Gibbs from I can see and now hear to graphical in it's control and deciding what you need to do verse what you want to do. I old school alot of thing with Mastercam like axis sub, 5 axis toolpaths using curve, and I really like the fact I can get the post to just about anything I want. I just added a back spot facing opition to a post where the code is perfect posted. It goes to the hole. Moves to the edpeth I want stops the spindle with a M00(a note is right there telling the operator what to do NEW IN X)then start the spinlde in the direction called out goes to the depth at a different feedrate then goes back to the safe depth stop again with a note and goes from there for 4 places. I have done this all with a drilling operation and done. Now that took me about 10 minutes in the post and I got what I want. Now that to me is powerful and efficent is UG or Catia better might be but do they cost the same I say no.

 

DREWG I am sorry to say but if you got (2) 9 axis machines with other machines you to me are outsdie a small shop. I was in one shop in Florida where we did $650,000 a year in sales and it was where I tried to get Mastercam but it fell through. I am now with one looking to do over $20,000,000 so I think you might be a little bigger than most and smaller than others. You have problay spent more on CAM software/Training then most have on Machines in the last 2 years.

[Carl Hessig]

quote:

-------------------------------------------------

OneCNC salesman slumming on the Mastercam forum ???

-------------------------------------------------

2 new forum members this month to post only in this thread starting on the day they registered.

Welcome?

Paid maintenance twice now and seen alot of benifits from it. Like not having to wait a year and a half for new releases.

X is great been using it since it came out and it gets better every day.

 

Carl

[DrewG]

Ron, I suppose you right. I just assume because we only employ about a dozen people that it's a "small shop".

 

The whole "gruck of the matter" comes down to one simple fact: When Mill/Turns started appearing a few years back, none of the CAM manufacturer's had much, if anything to offer. The machine manufacturer's (Mori, Mazak, etc..) were producing these high end, high dollar, very capable machines, but no one had anyway of programming them. Unless your shop bought one of these early mill/turns either set up by the manufacturer as a "turn key", or, you were only planning on running a few parts with long runs, or very simple parts, you were "SOL", period!!!!

It didn't matter which manufacturer's you bought, they were all in the same boat early on. Luckily, there are CAM products available now to run most of these, and more being added each year. That pretty much sums it up!!!! Peace!!!

[Guest]

G,

 

quote:

---

Last month Boeing was "encouraging" us to buy a software package called "Teamcenter".

---

Stay away from Teamcenter if you can. Check out PDMWorks, offered thru Solidworks.

 

To run Teamcenter and maintain it you will need someone at least prolly 50% time to admin it.

 

It too, is sold the same way as the rest of the UGS pricing scheme. To say it is quirky is an understatement. I can't tell you how many times one of the engineers or myself has checked out a file to work on it, you check it back in and if it was an assembly or even a reference set it does not always release it back. So, someone else goes into the file and they cannot retrieve it because it is still listed as checked out. Down to the server room, restart the sever to clear the hang. It has just become a big ol' PITA.

[steve f]

Drew,

 

I've been a loyal Mastercam user for 8 years now and, until I went out on my own, would've agreed with most comments here that support Mastercam exclusively. Now that I'm self employed though and every dollar spent relating to business operation can have extreme rewards and consequences (including the cash I've had to part with to buy Mastercam), I'd have to agree with you that...

 

quote:

---

If it works better than my current system, and can get my parts produced better, faster, and cheaper, I'll buy it...

---

It sounds like shameless stupidity from someone who's used one system for so long but the hard truth is that my companies success comes ahead of my personal preference for any one kind of software. I have to admit that the maintenance program seriously undermined my confidence in CNC Software, not because they didn't eventually deliver on their promises but because I saw it as a money grab. The fact is I won't switch to a CAM software other than Mcam because I CAN'T...I'm in too deep to turn back now and have to recoup this investment before considering any alternatives.

 

 

my 2c,

 

steve

[Guest]

quote:

---

The fact is I won't switch to a CAM software other than Mcam because I CAN'T...I'm in too deep to turn back now and have to recoup this investment before considering any alternatives.

---

steve,

 

If your software, whatever package, was not making you money, you would be remiss not to change it. As a business owner it is your job to keep your company postioned to turn a profit.

 

I get the obvious impression you are a small company and this may not be applicable to your situation.

 

The company I work for purchased 8 seats of UGNX and 1 CAM seat. Now, almost 2 years later, someone looked up and said what have we done? Our costs of engineering have increased 5 fold our design lead time is off the chart. We started looking heavily at another modeling package for "our" needs and have been in testing with it for the better part of 6 months. Our engineering time has been cut by a 1/3 and lead time has seen a significant drop. Management took all of the engineering time of the top four guys and averaged out over a year the savings of 30%. To drop UG and buy this other package will pay for itself in 1 yr.

 

I was also able to prove that even after spending the $$$ on UG CAM, that going back to MCAM and upgrading our Mill 1 seat to a Mill 3 with 5 axis was a better way to go. That one took months as my reseller can attest to but eventually it all came out in the wash.

 

It looks like the change will happen at the 1st of the year. If something is wrong for you, you cannot be afraid to adjust your course.

 

JMO

 

 

 

Hey Matt, I bet you didn't see this thread coming when you asked your original question.

 

[crazy^millman]

Yeah I would say that is a big problem industry wide turn key to most only means a few parts when they produce the machine so to them 10 different parts worth of set-up and programming using what ever CAM software is a wash in their book. That is the biggest problem for any business though. If you are use to 4 hours and then have to spend 40 you dont care if it is only one part a year that is stupid!!! They fell they got you by the short hairs so either deal with it or let the machine sit till you get the perfect job. We all know that is not pratical and it should be as simple as point and shoot but it is not.

 

I would love a crack at one of your machines just to do it. I am not saying I would get it done in a week but given the right amount of time to figure it out I think I could make whatever I had in front of get the job done like you have. I am use to being on the short end of the stick and having to tuff it out. This is where what ever the size of the shop, the amount of personal, equipment, CAM package, or product produced, any and all of us doing what we can to get the job done seperates us. PEACE is always on my mind.

[steve f]

I am a small business right now.

 

quote:

---

As a business owner it is your job to keep your company postioned to turn a profit.

---

I agree 100%...and profit is a reverse cost. How many hours of lost profit on package A would it take to justify the purchase of package B? Is the value returned on software maintenance justified if better ROI would be realized on something unrelated? Suddenly the sticker price on CAM and maintenance takes on new meaning.

[gcode]

quote:

---

Stay away from Teamcenter if you can

---

We managed to dodge that bullet.

Since you're dropping UG what are you replacing it with, SolidWorks??

 

In spite of what people might think, I am not a blind Mastercam loyalist. I do all my fixture

and modeling work in Solidworks and I am frustrated daily by the lack of associativity

bewteen SolidWorks and Mastercam.

 

In SolidWorks, I can be on the last operation of a 4 operation part and discover that I need to move a tooling tab a 1/2 inch. If I've designed

my stuff properly, I can change one number

and the tooling tab will move along with the clamp attached to it and all the holes and hardware associated with that clamp.

In a program like UG, Catia or even Camworks,

all my toolpaths would automatically update to reflect that change. In Mastercam I have to delete the old solids, re-import the new ones and rework all the toolpaths affected by the change.

If I could find a software with the power and fexibility on Mastercam that ran inside SolidWorks, I'd be gone in a flash. They havn't built it yet, but I check out every new one that comes along.

 

As far as the money side of things.

I don't think moving to maintenace was a "money grab". The old business model of just charging for "number" releases wasn't working anymore.

Under that model its was feast or famine.

The revenue stream was a big series of spikes and valleys . Up with the realse of V6, trickling down to nothing till V7 comes out, then a nice income for a while, then down to nothing again till they released V8 etc etc. We were in V9 for nearly 3 years. Three years between paydays is a long time.

X is the most complex and expensive product

Mastercam ever attempted, it requires a steady

revenue stream to hire and pay the people working on it, thus the move to maintenance. As a private

individual who maintains a seat of Mastercam out of my own pocket, I just about died when they moved to maintenance. I don't like it, but I understand it and support it.

 

More on money... and some of you will think I'm out of my mind for this but here goes...

The cost of buying and maintaining a CAM package

is a very minor part of the equation.

As a user, I have nearly a decade invested in

Mastercam and I can't get that back.

I can always whip out a credit card and buy a seat of the latest greatest CAM package, but then I must invest TIME learning to use it. When checking out a new CAM software, my primary

concern is not how much it costs, but "Is it worth

my TIME, to learn to use it?"

 

The same holds true for a business owner thinking

of switching to a new CAM package. The cost of the new package is nearly irrelevant compared

to the training costs and loss of productivy as

your programmers get up to speed with a new package.

The productivity of the new package will start at zero and go up from there as you invest time in training and payroll.

If it is a popular software you can hire someone

who already knows it and get a big jump on the learning curve. If its new or not well known

you're going to have to train your talent from the ground up.

 

If its good software you'll get back up to speed quickly, but when you look at the numbers, the aquisition cost of the software is not the biggest numner on the spreadsheet.

A programming department, floundering for a couple of months with a new CAM package, will make

a year's Mastercam maintenance look REAL cheap.

 

If the new software isn't working out (like Jim's experience with UG) you've got yourself a bottomless hole to throw payroll and lost opportunity into.

 

In summation, I think the cost of buying/maintaining a CAM package is probably #4

on the priorties list

 

#1 Can it do the job better than what I have now

#2 How long, how much will it cost to learn

#3 How much time, how much money for new posts

#4 How much does it cost to buy/maintain?

 

I'll get off my soapbox now