Maintenance expiring

[Guest]

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UG is a bit more, however they offer the best Tech Support that I've seen, and they have a major release EVERY 12 month's period. These are not patch's or upgrades.

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Best tech support huh? I could show you an email from GTAC claiming my part with 4 radial slots was a "bear of a part". Try getting them to address something when you "only' have 8 seats.

 

Patches or upgrades happen almost monthly, where they are having to fix something. They have the single best design package going but their CAM system is still back in the early 90's.

 

APT and sequential mill, if you think that is high tech stuff......

[DrewG]

I still believe and have experienced Tech support to be much better when you are dealing directly with the CAM manufacturer, such as in the case of UG, GIBBS, and Esprit, rather than the way Mastercam handles tech support thru your reseller. With Mastercam your Tech Support is only as good as your reseller. I lost weeks and was sent on a "goose chase" from my reseller just trying to post sub programs to my Haas's initially. He stated it couldn't be done, and that "why would I want to post sub's when I could just post the toolpath over and over again". Obviously because of limited memory and because we have been doing this for years with an old CAM system, Smartcam. I finally was shown in about 5 minutes how to do this when I was at Eastec and delt with another reseller.

As for UG's outdated CAM system, it will handle full 5 axis toolpaths, and offer's full simulation for a great deal of multi-tasking machines, something Mastercam cannot offer.

I have no problem with patch's or upgrade's being released frequently. It shows me the CAM company is listening to the user and making changes immediately as needed. Would you rather wait a year or longer for a major release in order to fix "bugs"?

As I stated in my above post, I'm not advocating UG or any other CAM system, including Mastercam. But to compare UG's maintenance fee's vs other CAM systems, is not comparing "apples to apples". You would do better to compare the combined maintenance fee's from your CAM system AND CAD system, and than compare it to UG.

[Rob Quality]

Hello, In regards to the "costly compared to what?". The point i was making there (soz i didn't explain it better) is that onecnc has no maintenance cost, this may seem unbelievable, but its true, and if you say "but it may be a bodgy program", the best thing to do is take a look urself at it, as i did.

 

The other thing i don't understand about alot of softwares eg... ug,pro,cat etc.... is that why to you pay for a product that has a bug or a fix in it and then have to pay for them to fix it????. Wouldn't you think that in buying a product it should work?? I can understand having to buy an upgrade but an update??? it doesn't make sense. Why would i buy a car from Henry Ford and drive it a week later and the steering wheel falls off, would they replace it for nicks?? not pay to get it fixed?

I'm not trying to start a argument It that i don't see why "we" as cad/cam ers should be paying for a program bug fix!

 

oh and thanks for the welcome

[DrewG]

Rob, although your arguement concerning "bugs" and having to pay to fix them thru maintenance fee's may seem strange, if you waited for all CAM companies to sell "the perfect" software without any "bugs", it would take years in between major releases instead of the approx. 12 month's that most manufacturer's have. The software would also not improve as quickly as manufacturer's count on the maintenance fee's in order to develop their product. Believe me, I hate paying for maintenance, however I would hate even more to have to wait considerably longer for my CAM company to make changes and upgrades to their product.

Software is NOT like buying almost any other retail product available. Did you know that you are not actually "buying the software" when you purchase your seats, but are actually paying for a license to use the software. This is the reason you can't sell the software. No software manufacturer will offer tech support unless your the original purchaser. I may have paid almost 40K for my four seats of software, but their not worth a fraction of that the same day I receive them if I tried to sell them.

OneCNC maybe the exception to the above rule, and may even change the way the CAM market sells software if they are able to "grab" enough of the competitors seats.

[moldmaker10]

On the machinist forum I have only heard good things regarding the onecnc program. I personally have no knowledge of their system but have considered looking at the program because of what I have read. I think some people are still alittle peed over it taking so long for mastercam x to finally be released.

[Rob Quality]

I understand what you mean DrewG and point taken. To me software is like buying or "renting" anything else, if you pay for a product you would expect it to work? am i right? if not the company should fix it. If I lease a PC from a company and it dies they then come and fix it as I have payed a lease fee. I basically get what I payed for. If the PC isn't install properly by the company and doesn't work why should I pay them to come out and get it going?

Why should we pay for their "mistakes" or "experimentations". If i was a developer I would want to fix my problems with my software for my customers to keep them happy and to show people that I give my support to my product.

 

I, as well as others, hope that one day the cad/cam programs will have "free" bug fixed, upgrades are a different matter, I believe it will also make their product alot more attractive, no ongoing fees (bit like the banks wouldn't u say ).

 

Master cam I believe is a good product and I would recommend people get a demo to try it out, I am not bagging it in anyway so please don't get the wrong impression.

 

Anyway all is good from where I am sitting .

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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...On the machinist forum I have only heard good things regarding the onecnc program...

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That's because the OneCNC folks troll in there all the time.

[Guest]

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That's because the OneCNC folks troll in there all the time.

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Read some of these and previous posts by certain individual here and you might wonder if there is not a troll amongst this group.

 

There are always discussions about other systems here and thats a good thing but when that is ALL someone posts about it, it leaves you to wonder. At least it does me.

[Matt Berube at Ferron Mold]

I hope this doesn't sound too argumentative but how does the presence of "trolls" prevent people from complaining about the product? For every 2 people that love MC I can find 1 that hates it. I have looked for bad reviews on OneCNC and have found exactly none. Rest assured if they get our money and it doesn't exceed our expectations there will be complaints.

[P_Scott]

DrewG,

 

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UG is a complete CAD/CAM package whereby all of the others are advertised as CAM software.

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Mastercam is also a complete CAD/CAM package. With associated toolpaths which means if the design is changed, within Mcam and there are toolpaths that are using that CAD, they are easily regenerated. Usually this regeneration is so fast it isn't even worth clicking a stopwatch to time it. Surface toolpaths are the only ones that usually take more time to regenerate.

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I finally was shown in about 5 minutes how to do this when I was at Eastec and delt with another reseller.

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There is a difference between resellers. But for Mastercam to even consider Tech Support for their ENTIRE client base would be monumental to say the least. Not to mention they would need it to be open 24/7 and have every known spoken language represented. Mcam is used EVERYWHERE. Should Mcam hire people from every country to provide Tech Support or simply rely on the international reseller network to provide local support in the language that is spoken and at the time most shops are open in their region of the world? Fortunately there is a choice of resellers in the New England states. That is not the case for almost everywhere else. As you discovered at Eastec, that difference can be substantial.

 

Rob Quality,

 

Welcome to the forum.

quote:

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I'm not trying to start a argument It that i don't see why "we" as cad/cam ers should be paying for a program bug fix!

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No one using Mastercam pays for "bug fixes". These are referred to as Service Packs or SP's. A couple of years ago Mastercam decided to offer an Optional Maintenance program for their software. The Maintenance is a good way to receive all improvements/enhancements for the software for a single annual fee. This Maintenance package includes ALL enhancements and updates, even major version changes, for the length of the maintenance contract. If the contract expires any MR's that were installed before expiration are still applicable (sp?). Service Packs are available for everyone using that version of the software. Someone without Maintenance will just not receive any enhancements during the version cycle and they would also have to pay a fee to update to the newest version of the software.

 

Matt Berube,

 

Please take the time to review all the information you have at your disposal. We are available during normal business hours and will be happy to answer any questions you may have about Mcam. The advice here is good advice. Always "kick the tires" of any new software. Test it out for a period of time. Consider all that you will lose if you switch, and not just the software's capabilities. Training is always a time consumer and there will be a learning curve for anything new. Also consider this wonderful forum that you would no longer be welcome to communicate with. Does OneCNC have as many varied resources for providing support as Mcam? Are there as many knowledgable users that you would have easy access to learn from? The intangibles are often as important as the tangibles in this case. HTH

[Matt Berube at Ferron Mold]

Peter, surely you are not suggesting that I am not welcome here if my maintenance expires ? Afterall we will still have those Mcam seats to use maintenance or not... I agree that this forum is wonderful and as long as I have a need for Mcam I will also have a need for this forum. I have not experienced the OneCNC support but have been assured that it will be spectacular. I could keep you posted if you like... There are certainly not as many users as Mcam but there are enough seats in use to make me believe there will be plenty of knowledge.

[P_Scott]

Matt Berube,

 

I didn't mean to imply that you wouldn't be able to remain a valued member of this great forum if your Maintenance expired. I only meant to point out that another software may not have a forum such as this one, and that if your company switched to OneCNC, the current members of this forum may not be as helpful. Loyalty to one product is very high on this forum. There are other members who use or have used other software. Personally I'm glad to assist anyone if I feel I can, whether it's directly related to Mastercam or not. I can't speak for everyone however and I know others in the past who had voluntarily left the forum discussion when they went to another company that was not using Mcam. When they returned they were welcomed back with open arms. I just wanted to make you aware of what others had given up when they were no longer using the main software under discussion on this forum. I hope that clarifies things a little more. I, like many other members here, am always looking to help those in need.

[crazy^millman]

Funny though you must be a registered user to go to their Forum. All of them are that way not emastercam anyone can come here talk chat and no matter what. Why is this becuse we are not here to help Mastercam and keep things about Mastercam hidden. We are not here to hurt the proession as a whole by not sharing tips or ideas realted to this profession. We are different. I like how they do not say they can do 5 axis machining for all 5 axis they do say the can do 3 acis and then move the other axis like on a trunnion type machine but never really commit to do fully 5 axis work in the news release. I mean go spend the money in 5 mintues and you are an expert 5 axis programmer using thier software.

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OneCNCXR removes the mysteries of Multi Axis machining

OneCNC innovative development team has again excelled in removing the shackles of knowledge constraints by developing 4-axis and 5-axis machining that users can literally learn to use in 5 minutes.

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5 axis programmer in 5 minutes.

 

Wow it has only taken me about 3 years to get what I can do with 5 axis in Mastercam and learn something all the time on different ways I can do 5 axis work and in 5 minutes you are out doing Mastercam, Catia and everyone else I mean shoot we should all jump ship and become OneCNC programmer we don't have to have any ability to program according to this quote:

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OneCNCXR's intuitive user interface allows machine operators, with no previous CAD-CAM experience to quickly learn and produce tool paths. The experience they bring through manufacturing knowledge reduces the learning curve. This enables new users to be immediately productive.

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Very Bottom of the 1st Page

 

So hell looks like all these companies that have Mastercam and pay us people who program Mastercam are just plain stupid. I mean all they need to get ONECNC and all programmers are gone no need for us anymore anyone who knows machining will be programming from their software. .

[Bruce Caulley]

Ron,

All advertising for any product is usually laced with BS. Having said that onecnc is super easy to learn. In a job shop it literally does only take a couple of days to get up to speed. Even on our 5 axis machines 90% of our work is only done on separate faces, MC doesn't even get up a sweat most days. I think it is all about marketing, onecnc probably won't convince any MC mill level 3 customers, but imagine a small shop with a haas or two and maybe a trunion. Imagine they have never used a cam system before and are looking to buy one, where would you target your marketing?

 

Forum members discuss different packages all the time. Why do discussions about onecnc seem to end up all catty??

 

Bruce

[crazy^millman]

I think it is the diccusion of ripping Mastercam a new one that gets the problem with some of us. I will be the first to say it needs things tweaked but to think you need to rip it and get support from me or others who pretty make their living off of Mastercam to say this product is better and go ok may I have some more of that Terd sandwich is going to work it's not. I think the BS is just that BS and think it's funny people can come in here and talk about other software without restrictions but you can not do that in other's forums.

 

I was in a shop with one CNC Mill and one CNC Lathe and I got Mastercam over Gibbs, OneCNC, Smartcam, and a few others and got what I paid for in my mind.

[DrewG]

I still don't understand than if Mastercam is the premier, number one CAM system out there, and prides itself on this, than why were they the last to upgrade to a windows based program with X??? If you ask me, Mastercam should've recognized this years ago, and should've been one of the first to upgrade, not the last, and X should've been available 5 years ago. I believe Mastercam believe's what too many on this forum say about "how wonderful it is, and beats any software on the market", and therefore rested on their laurals, collected maintenance fees, and ONLY after they started losing significant business to other CAM systems did they finally realize that "hey, we may be able to get over on our current customers who aren't looking at new software, however when we have to go up against the current windows based CAM companies, ala GIBBS, Esprit, Edgecam, etc.. we're getting our xxxx's kicked". If anyone here can't truely say after using any of the above listed CAM systems, that you would buy Mastercam V9, your not being honest. V9 looks so old compare to any of the above, you may as well be watching black and white TV before cable was ever invented. Further proof was at IMTS '04, I spent three full days in the CAD/CAM section, and Mastercam by far, had fewer people in their booth than either GIBBS or Esprit.

 

I am no "troll" here either. I spent 40k with Mastercam, and wished I'd looked at all the other CAM companies before I purchase Mastercam. However, I fell for the ole "Mastercam is number one, with more seats than anyone else out there, etc..." I assummed there was a reason why. I haven't found it out to this day. After using Edgecam, Gibbs, Esprit and UG, I would use anyone of those before I went back to Mastercam.

 

Mastercam is no CAD program. Sure you can draw the absolute basics, and they offer "solids", but so do all the other CAM systems. But to truely state that any of these CAM systems are also CAD systems is not true. None of these CAD systems including Mastercam could hold a flame to Solidworks, UG, CATIA V5, etc... If so, why not change Mastercam to Mastercad/cam. If this was true you better believe Mastercam would've changed their name to include CAD in it to take advantage of the all the selling benefits.

[gcode]

Drew,

Do use Mastercam for anything?

I realize you bought it for MATTS which never happened. I'd be angry about that myself, but

your last post leads me to believe you don't do much with Mastercam except gripe about it.

 

Mastercam is #1 for a reason and its not because a bunch of people on the net say so.

Its #1 because more people use it and more people use it cause it does a better job.

 

UG is not a fair comparison cause a full seat of UG cost 3 to 4 time what MC does.

Take the other three you mentioned and do a job search on Monster.com, Headhunter.com or any other search engine.

If you take all three together Mastercam will still beat them 2 or 3 to 1.

I'm not talking about how it "looks" or Windows

vrs DOS interface or how many people watched the dog and pony shows at IMTS 2004.

 

I'm talking about users in seats and employeers hiring users. Mastercam wins hands down.

I bought Mastercam for that reason and that reason only. I wanted off the shop floor and 5 years of watching the want adds convinced me

that Mastercam was king. It was when I bought V7 and still is today.

 

 

I just tried my experiment on carrerbuilders.com

The search was liminted to the last 30 days within 50 miles of Los Angles

Mastercam 26

Esprit 0

Gibbs 6

Edgecam 0

Teksoft 0

SolidCam 0

OneCNC 0

UG 9 all CAD no CAM

ProE 25 24 CAD one CAM

Catia 3 pages of CAD 1 or 2 manufacturing postions

 

Surfcam returned 6 pages of adds, but most were

machinist positions and Surfcam wasn't mentioned in the adds. Don't know what that's about.

There were some programming positions

 

The bottom line, if I were were looking for work tomorrow, I'd much rather be a Mastercam driver than any of others. That makes it #1 in my book.

(even if it can't program your multispindle lathes)

[Chris Flint Two Ft Pty Ltd]

My 2 cents.

Pay the maintenance and stick with MC they have been damn good to me with anything I have had issues with and very helpful and NO they did not insist I go to my reseller first.

Yes, I was tempted to throw in the towell in the beginning and go to an opposition product, but if you want to do that, do what I did and first have a good read of their forum (if they have one?)and you will find there are as many complaints about the same stuff that you find complaints about here.

I say stay with MC.

chris f

[Chipps]

Gcode

Well you would need to do better than dream that carrerbuilders.com link that takes you to a dead screen.

We know of companies that have problems getting Mastercam users because now many guys don’t like using and prefer to go places where they have other software products.

Maybe that is the theory of vacancies for Mastercam.

[Thad]

This thread is turning comical.

 

Thad

[Skir]

I started programming using SmartCam..It took me almost an entire year, (using it every day) to become comfortable with it. I caught on to MasterCam in a couple of weeks, Its just very user friendly, there are pros and cons for every system out there, Think a ford guy's gonna switch to that new Chevy?

[gcode]

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Well you would need to do better than dream that carrerbuilders.com link that takes you to a dead screen

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Careerbuilders.com

 

As a further experiment I did a search of the whole USA.

"Mastercam" returned 5 pages.

"OneCNC" returned nothing.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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...We know of companies that have problems getting Mastercam users because now many guys don’t like using and prefer to go places where they have other software products.

Maybe that is the theory of vacancies for Mastercam...

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Well sir, your "theory" about the "theory" is false. Every morning and sometimes once more I recieve several Job Openings IN MY AREA through Careerbuilder.com. I subscribe and my only key word is Mastercam. Here in the states Mastercam is by far the most widely used. It was my experience when I worked for Mori Seiki, the VAST majority of shops I went into ran Mastercam, and now that I'm on my own doing applications work, that still holds true. Can't speak for the UK, but here sir, Mastercam Rules.

 

My guess would be that in the UK, perhaps Edgecam would be the leader correct?

 

JM2C

[crazy^millman]

Well DrewG I think it is sad you shelved $40,000 worth of software. I also think it funny you care more about looks than functionality. I got a good looking 2006 porshe I will sell you. The brakes don't work, has no engine, transmission, rusted all to hell on the under carraige, and do not go look at the passager side becuase it is all dented to hell but from the driver side it looks sweet. Now would you rather go look at my mint condition fully restored 69 mustang matching numbers. Both look good but one will get you from point A to point B and that is been my whole point. Do all of the 75,000 plus seat need your capabilites no. Are you honsetly going to say Mastercam is worthless and can not do a thing for you shows a real distaste for not getting MATTS and nothing to do with MASTERCAM and it capabilites and it abilities.

[Müřlıń®]

OK Stupid question time.... What is MATTS?