Maintenance expiring

[DrewG]

Greg, So nice to hear from you!! I hope your new career with Iscar is going well.

You have experience with UG NX as well as Esprit and Mastercam if I remember correctly. However, in your new career I'm not sure how much you use them. It would be nice to hear some of your experiences with regard to this topic. Cheers!!!

[Greg Williams]

Drew,

 

Good to hear from you again, you are correct I do have experience with these packages.

 

Essentially about half off my time is spent designing special purpose insert cutters for the mining industry, Like all things mining they are large Ø300-Ø600 with anywhere between 100-200 inserts. I also look after the manufacturing of these bodies so I see the everyday pain from programming multitasking and multi axis machines. I do the toolpath work with for these cutters with NX.

 

The rest of my time is spent with Applications work. We basically offer the whole solution, Tooling, programming setups and so on, this keeps my finger in the pie so to speak.

 

I have seen companies make uninformed decisions based on what they have been told or read on glossy propaganda brochures, and unfortunately they don’t find out until they are too far down the road. My advice to anyone looking at buying software or a machine tool is ask as many questions as you can and get all of your staff and suppliers involved.

[crazy^millman]

Yeah that was my experience when I got Mastercam. I had Surfcam, Gibbs and Mastercam come into our shop back in Florida. I gave them all the part I was doing long hand (at that pojnt 140 hours worth of time) and asked them to program it for me. Show me how good your program is and how easy it will be for me to do the job. Gibbs pretty much left after about an hour. Surfacm skirted my questions and gave me a good show but did not impress me since they could not even draw the part right. Then comes in Jim Gamble from Mastercam. He sat down and in mintues had the part drawn in solids and within a little while he had the part programmed and had me making chips on the very part I was needing done. That was the justification I needed to get Mastercam. We had it but then the owner pulled out of the lease after about 2 months. I was hooked and been going forward since then. I in that time have figured out posts pretty decent and programmed and done alot of different types of work for quite an assortment of machines. Like I say above for 99% of the shops it fills their needs. Do I wish some things were different and there are things that need to be fixed yes there are, but will it at the end of the day help me to make good parts for what I need yes.

 

Oh sorry for fragments, run on sentences, bad grammer, spelling, or anything else that seems to be more important that my point.

[Bruce Caulley]

I understand your selection process Ron, but hypothetically speaking you didn't necessarily select the best software, just the best demonstrator.

 

I run into the same problem when recommending all sorts of stuff here. The best product for us usually isn't the one with the best salesman or presentation, but they are the items that end up getting selected by management. It is good that I get the chance to change their mind a lot. Isn't that right Greg

 

 

Bruce

[P_Scott]

DrewG,

 

Not to chime in too late on this topic. Here's a statement you made which I know for a fact is not correct.

quote:

---

I believe Mastercam believe's what too many on this forum say about "how wonderful it is, and beats any software on the market", and therefore rested on their laurals, collected maintenance fees, and ONLY after they started losing significant business to other CAM systems did they finally realize that "hey, we may be able to get over on our current customers who aren't looking at new software, however when we have to go up against the current windows based CAM companies, ala GIBBS, Esprit, Edgecam, etc.. we're getting our xxxx's kicked".

---

Being an employee of a reseller allows some insight into CNC Software and how decisions are made. I've met several employees of CNC Software and have dealt with them firsthand for a number of years. Mcam X was in development far longer than the Maintenance program was instituted. MATSS has also been in development for a few years. The developer of Mastercam is one of the few software companies that is aware of their customer's needs and actively pursues the fulfillment of those needs. With Mcam X, it took a while because they didn't want to release an inferior product just to meet a deadline, or the perceived time their customer base expected a major rewrite of the software to take. This is also true of MATSS. They are extremely conscientious of their user base and what they release has to be worthy of the high expectations from the user base. MATSS was temporarily shelved to meet a higher priority. This doesn't mean they're not going to continue with the development of that product. It is currently under development. We have clients who are in the same position as yourselves. CNC Software just doesn't want to rush the release of software they feel is not ready. I prefer to have it that way. If it's not ready, don't release it. I doubt they would've promised the release of MATSS had they foreseen whatever it was that caused the change in priorities. They made a calculated risk that MATSS could wait until after Mcam X was released and they could devote more effort to continued development of MATSS. There are few software companies today that have the kind of dedication to their customer base that CNC Software has demonstrated time and again over the years. Hang in there. Keep talking and asking questions. Help is available.

[DrewG]

Peter,

The "we're getting are xxxx's kicked" (meaning by the competition, was stated to me by two different Mastercam resellers here in the Northeast on several occasions. I only repeated it, and believed it.)

 

Listen, I understand software development takes time, and it's a huge undertaking going from version 9 to X, however didn't Mastercam(the King of CAM) know in advance (years ago) this was going to have to be done??? I mean, did they really think they could continue to offer their version 9, go up against all of their competitors who are using Windows, and continue to increase sales?

I believe going from 9 to X should've been a smooth transition, that should've been thought out years in advance. Although it may've taken years to develop, it should've been done years ago behind the scenes. Instead, it appears they waited to the last minute until they could "get all they could out of 9", and then decided to change to Windows. By than, it was too late, they found out it takes an incredible amount of time to upgrade, and pissed off alot of people out there by having their resellers "float" release dates out almost daily. At the shows I attended it was always a joke. It really made CNC Software look bad. Maybe not on this "pro-Mastercam site", but take a look outside on every other public forum, and you'll see the truth. Anyone who argues about how X's release was handled and does not agree there were some major flaws or issues, is simply blinded.

As far as the MATTS deal, that also pissed alot of people off, and some of them are rather large companies. I have spoken to plenty of them around the country, and have even had several drive or fly in to my facility to see how the "other CAM system" handles Mill/Turn. I'm not here bashing Mastercam, but to believe that there are no other CAM systems on the market that can compete with Mastercam is simply not true. CNC Software forced alot of their current users, new users, old users, and prospective users to take a look at the competition, because of their poor handling of X and MATTS. Whether they can get them back, we'll have to wait and see. I have no allegiance to any one particular CAM company. If Mastercam eventually has a multi-tasking product available, I will be one of the first in line to try it. If it works better than my current system, and can get my parts produced better, faster, and cheaper, I'll buy it.

[DrewG]

Peter-Doesn't your company also offer CIMCO DNC systems? I believe I may've met you at Eastec two years ago when I was interested in buying a wireless DNC system for my facility. Unfortunately, John from Canada(Cimco) got involved, and after dropping 10K on a system, I have had nothing but headaches right from the start.

[Gary]

God thats 50k in worthless software. You have some luck. I hope your the owner otherwise the explaining has to fun.

[crazy^millman]

Well Bruce I have been exposed to others over the years and I knew Gibbs and they were only called becuase the owner made me. I ask very spefic questions then ask for very spefic answers to those questions to gauge what it can do. I am not saying they are not capable programs in certain areas I am saying forthe complex type of work I was looking for Mastercam shined the best and still shines the best as I always do my best short of buying others software to stay on top of what is out there and being offered by others. I got a good freind that used Cimatron for Years when he opened his own business he got Mastercam after using it for a year. I have freinds all over and you get a good feel for what they use and like. I have worked in over 20 shops from the east coast to the west coast of America and it may be called foolish to trust others with what they feel about certain things but has not failed me yet. I see more oppurinity, capability as an over all package in the industry not limited instances with Mastercam.

 

Just my humble opinion.

[crazy^millman]

Well Drew not to be a smarta$$ but you will only have to upgrade to get MATTS when it comes out so will save you some money there.

[Rob Quality]

After reading more of this post I can see that it's basically "each to his own". I guess we could all say we're experts and we know which is the right software, But I guess it's up to the individual in what they are seeking. I know from personal experience (not that it is much) that I find some "products" easier to use than other, however that doesn't mean that another person feels the same. So as I have suggested and as well as others in here, is to get some demo software or whatever you are looking for and try it urself. Then make comments about it. It's a bit hypocritical to make comments on something you have never tried or seen for that fact. If you happy with Mastercam and have invested some mullah in it STAY WITH IT!. If you want to look around WELL LOOK AROUND! That doesn't mean through MC in the bin, its a good program and a shame to waste it!

[DrewG]

You are 100% correct Millman. I truely hope it does happen. There IS some light at the end of the tunnel!!! Peace!!

[DrewG]

Rob, I couldn't have said it better!!!! That's all I was trying to get across. But to be able to make a statement that "one thing is better than the other", you have to have at least used both in order to have any credability, and compare "apples to apples". I don't believe enough people do this today, they buy one thing, and because it's worked for them, that makes it the best period. They don't want to even look at another product, or if they do, if any part of it is better, try and get them to say so.

[gcode]

Earlier in this thread I posted the results

on an on-line jobs search for Mastercam and various other CAM packages.

 

Yesterday I tried the same thing on Ebay.

There were pirates selling Mastercam, ProE

and SolidWorks. I killed the pirates

 

There was a fully leagal seat of Camworks for sale at 25% of its origianl cost. (its gone now)

 

You can also buy Bobcad from a dealer on Ebay

There are 2 pages of training materials available for Mastercam.

SolidWorks, Autocad, Catia and UG all have training material available as well.

Edgecam, Espirt, Surfcam, SolidCam and OneCNC

Procad and TekSoft searches produced no results.

 

When combined with the result of last week's job search, this is further evidence that none of these CAM packages are in widespead use.

[DrewG]

gcode---If I understand your statement above you

believe that: "because you didn't see anyone posting a help wanted ad for programming using any of the above CAM systems (Esprit, Gibbs, Edgecam, Surfcam, Solidcam, OneCNC), and because you couldn't find any training manuals for the same, that none of these are in widespread use".

 

Is this your conclusion??

[Bruce Caulley]

Gcode, that sort of thinking is probably why CNC didn't look over their shoulder a few years ago. Good CAM product or not, market leader in installed seats or not, it is hard to believe that they weren't resting on their laurels while others were catching up. Now just when the others are getting a serious look from new users CNC trips over with the whole X rollout / maintenance issue. I don't necessarily agree, but I know of two shops that didn't buy MC recently because of this, and three more looking to switch.

 

Bruce

[DrewG]

I believe CIM DATA's results are the most scientific. If you read the latest Data, CNC Software WAS number one in terms of seats sold everyear from 1995-2003. Since than UG has taken over the "crown". And the fastest growing CAM company in the market currently is Solidcam, period!!

In 2004, there were 67,110 total seats of CAM software sold, with Mastercam selling 4,544 seats.

[Greg Williams]

quote:

---

When combined with the result of last week's job search, this is further evidence that none of these CAM packages are in widespead use.

---

Interesting theory, Can you use it to test Catia design seats?

 

[ 11-23-2005, 03:57 AM: Message edited by: Budgie ]

[Bruce Caulley]

quote:

---

Interesting theory, Can you use it to test Catia design seats?

---

A couple of pages I think he said.

 

Bruce

[Greg Williams]

quote:

---

I just tried my experiment on carrerbuilders.com

The search was liminted to the last 30 days within 50 miles of Los Angles

Mastercam 26

Esprit 0

Gibbs 6

Edgecam 0

Teksoft 0

SolidCam 0

OneCNC 0

UG 9 all CAD no CAM

ProE 25 24 CAD one CAM

Catia 3 pages of CAD 1 or 2 manufacturing postions

 

Surfcam returned 6 pages of adds, but most were

machinist positions and Surfcam wasn't mentioned in the adds. Don't know what that's about.

---

ah yes Found it.

 

So what does this actually prove?

[Chipps]

It proves that a lot of Mastercam guys have deserted and gone to use the other brands due sick of waiting 10 years for a Windows Software...

[gcode]

quote:

---

So what does this actually prove

---

It proves that if I were looking for a job in

Southern California I'd have a lot better chance of finding one as a Mastercam programmer.

My Ebay search proves there is much more demmand

for Mastercam training material.

I agree the X rollout has been rocky, but I

do not believe it was because Mastercam was resting on thier laurels. I've been a beta tester for 6 years and nobody's been resting.

[DrewG]

The release of X wasn't "rocky", it goes beyond the upsurd. For such a large CAM company, they handled it terribly!!! They pissed a ton of people off, period, no denying that.

[gcode]

Has they released it a year ago when everyone started screaming, they would have pissed off a whole lot more

[P_Scott]

DrewG,

 

quote:

---

Peter-Doesn't your company also offer CIMCO DNC systems? I believe I may've met you at Eastec two years ago when I was interested in buying a wireless DNC system for my facility.

---

Yes we do sell Cimco Integration software products. It's entirely possible that you met me at Eastec as I've been with SFA for 6 years now. Was that the year the Cimco booth was directly across the aisle from the Mastercam corporate booth? The Cimco product line is very simple to use and generally considered "top of the line" in quality. I'm surprised to hear you've been experiencing "headaches". Many of our clients use both Mcam and Cimco and have posted in this forum that the Cimco product "rocks", to quote at least one of our regular customers. We switched to Cimco several years ago after selling Predator software. Where are you located? I know your sig says "Wall". Is that Wallingford, CT? Give us a call if you're looking for help. Happy Thanksgiving