X certification questions fileded here!

[Guest]

quote:

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I thought all programmers were certifiable.

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I'm with Stork on this one.

 

Certifiable with the papers to prove it.

 

[John T.]

Sorry, but I don't really see a benefit for certification. So you have a certificate, and a part in an archive. How likely is an employer going to be calling up you guys just to verify the user is proficent with MCX? I would think that it would be better for the potential employee to put his money where his mouth (resume) is. If nothing else, the references on a resume could be called and asked about MC usage.

 

I agree on the nuts and bolts classes of the more obscure things. Sometimes being shown something is better than reading about it.

[J Coulston]

SURFCAM is announced that X certification from Mastercam will qualify youins for a SURFCAM certification.

 

Sorry couldnt resist.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...How about something that gets into creating canned text and Custom Drill cycles, some of the lesser used funtions would be great to have someone walk you through...

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Have you asked our reseller to offer a Post Processor Class? CNC offers them a few times a year I believe.

[Kelly Burns]

James

 

Your reseller might offer them in Cali, but ours doesnt in Ohio. I was told maybe I could go to PA. for a class thats offered on just posts.

 

This would translate into days off work; because we are not re-imbursed for class time, plus costs for staying out of state. If it were offered from our reseller, its only an hour away.

This would be much more feasible for myself, and co-workers.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Post classes are a smidge on the tricky side. When I was teaching Advanced MC at a local trade school, I just went over the basics (switches, common variables, formatting, etc...) nothing trick. Funny thing, at the beginning EVERYBODY wanted to learn about posts, after about an hour lecture, 1 or 2 (out of 20) were into it. The rest of the people were falling asleep (and not because I'm boring )

[spade117]

This is the response I got when I asked my reseller about this certification program and gave them the link that was posted above:

 

 

quote:

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This training does not exist, it has been an area of confusion for all. It is meant for the Educational Institutions and will someday may be offered by Mastercam Educational division. They have a separate division for Industrial and for Colleges, High Schools etc.....

 

If anything ever develops I will let you know..

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[Ray H.]

Spade

 

Sounds like your reseller is misinformed, we can all go to Shopwareinc.com and Mastercam.com and see that the program does exist. It is in it's initial stages. I stated earlier Mike Freimann is coming here next week to give our first class here in Illinois.

[cadcam]

Spade117, So you know we offer this here in Cali for are customers.

 

Like Ray stated the Reseller needs to talk with Mike.

I will send mike to this post hen I see him today at the show.

 

Thanks Ray H for all your info on this.

[Ray H.]

I guess one way to look at it is like a degree in your programming skills. I think I have a pretty good idea of what programmers think of Engineers, right.Although they have proven themselves in school they are often given little respect in the shop.They are the ones laughing,with good pay to boot. At this time there is no standard for skill sets in our trade. This card has the potential to blow the doors open on our pay scale. You all know that a piece of paper in any field is worth it's weight in gold. Employers look for these things in potential hires, as a whole.

[Guest]

quote:

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You all know that a piece of paper in any field is worth it's weight in gold. Employers look for these things in potential hires, as a whole.

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Like the one that called yesterday with an offer of $17 hr for a programmer.

 

Most employers won't even bat an eyelash at the paper. I see ads all the time for CNC programmers and they want a BS degree to run a machine

[Ray H.]

No Problem

 

If anyone wants to e-mail me a contact number I will be happy to talk to you over the phone so you can ask more direct questions. In saying that I wil contact all who e-mail me, though I can really only benefit those people in ILL and WIS.

[Ray H.]

WOW John,

A BS degree to run a machine. I have never heard that one. Although I do Know that CNC technology Has lessened the skills of people in our trades. I am not starting another thread about machinist and toolmakers. All I am saying is if you allow to be paid $17/hr, thats a choice you make.The arguement that this Cert. will do nothing, goes against education all together. We have got to start somewhere.

[Guest]

Ray,

 

I agree, educate yourself, I firmly believe and practice that.

 

There are however, always going to be shops who simply want to scrape the bottom of the barrel in an effort to "do it on the cheap"

 

But yeah, a BS, to program, setup and prove outs.

 

Blew my mind

[Ray H.]

John

 

Those shops you talk about were all over the place out here in Ill before 9/11. People that don't pay won't last. We are seeing it out here now. The biggest thing I hear is that there is no skill. Just Green button pushers. So I can see an opening for all of us to prove our skill sets to those employers who value keeping up with the times and paying for there employees to do the same. In other words the good companies to work for. Although I have never worked at one of these fantasy shops,I meet people in class all the time that work at these places. Believe me I know that being here in Chicago has alot to do with that as well.What I see as a whole is the carrying capacity has been reached here in ILL, meaning all the weak shops have been eaten by wolves and the strong and smart shops have prevailed.

I beleive employers would pay well for a person that really has the skills they say they have and can prove it walking in the door.

[billystein]

I would put mine with all my other certificates that I have gotten from machine sellers and cad cam companys.

In the bottom drawer of my roll away where no one has ever seen them.

In california that certificate and $52. will get you an annual pass to six flags.

[Fig sign]

I would put mine with all my other certificates that I have gotten from machine sellers and cad cam companys

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+1000

Who ever cares about it ?

[crazy^millman]

It is funny we just had this diccusion at the NTMA yesterday. I think if there was a natinoal accpeted standard in which people ability could be certifed it would be a good thing. I say this in a way to give the profession a different look so to speak. We all have seen it and live about the thought of this profession. We are all professionals in our jobs and take what we do very serious. Some of us have had more education or as much education as lawers, Doctors, and the such yet we are always looked down upon. You offer a cerftificate saying we have basic skills for Mastercam for your area sorry but what does that mean. What group of compaines have you got with to see if the test meet their needs and level of need. I reminds me of the apperitcance program I was in back in Florida. The teachers that were teaching math were getting it wrong then the guy teaching blueprint reading pretty much have never done it before and I ended up teaching him how to read blueprints. There was 4 guys in the class from the big company that was a important sponsor. They could run one machine or 2 and that was it and they were going to Jounerymen Machinist. They could not tram a head on a mill, explain postive, netural, or negative geometry on inserts but they were going to have that piece of paper.

 

Open the door for others is what you do by going to the doors of the companies in the area and getting from them what they need to have. Taylor test or classes to fill that need and certify to that. That then gives the people going to classes more creditable acceptance into that company. Basics are pretty much thrown out the window now a day. I think anyone programming should have been on a machine at some time in their life. Had to set-up, operate, fix, congel, cuss what ever it took to get jobs out the door. I can tell you I make ok programs but I know I could make them better watching them run and seeing what I missed and that does not come from the ability to do Mastercam well that comes from years of experience and have a certifcate that does not incldue shop work to me is a false type of one.

 

Glad you are offering something but without looking at the meat and potatoes of what it offers I am sorry to say I am very skeptical it can be given acceptance without some industry accpetance and particaption to make sure it to the level it needs to be.

 

God luck in your endevor

[Ray H.]

Thanks Ron

 

I appreciate the feedback.

What you describe as needed info. is exactly what we are planning on doing. For instance If you work for Chrysler they will work hand in hand with the certification committee extensively to deveolpe a set standard for there automotive industry. For this to gain exceptance it will have to be dealt with exactly as you said. With large companies participation. You can read some testimonials on Mastercams Website. I know for a fact that the United States Army and Navy are currently using the standards. This Program is not a Certification (piece of paper in your roll around)

that is easily obtained. Not everyone can or will pass this test.

It is to develop to be exactly what you have stated Ron.

[Guest]

Here's the catch though Ray.

 

Someone like myself, why, would I invest the time, effort and $$$ in obtaining this type of certification?

 

What would be the payback on this investment?

 

In direct education there is a direct recoup in your investment in yourself. Many, certainly not all, LARGE companies are tied into the larger CAM systems already. This leaves many middle of the road and small companies to drive this home on. Many of us already see a decline in what is available on the market.

 

How is this program envisioned to make markets viable to the people who will invest this time, effort and money into themselves if the return is not there?

 

Many of us already talk to people or know people in the business, many of whom say the same thing, "I can't find good help." Find out what they are offering, it is not anywhere near what a quality person is either already receiving or is actually worth.

 

I think on the surface this sounds like a good idea. I just don't see how in the end it is going to be worth it to the person who will make the investment or even how companies, that are already short buying are going to make it worth the individuals effort to attain it, when the return is non-exsistant or negligible.

[Mike Mattera - TFM]

John makes an number of good points. But I know this one is very true...

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"Many of us already talk to people or know people in the business, many of whom say the same thing, "I can't find good help." Find out what they are offering, it is not anywhere near what a quality person is either already receiving or is actually worth."

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Taking a Certification class does not teach you how to use Mastercam. It proves your skills and gives you a card that states you have a certian level of proficency with Mastercam. Is that worth the $ ? Will it make you more $ ? Those are the real questions. Will paying for the update classes and re-cretification for each new version keep you in the upper earning bracket of CNC programmers? Does the benefit out weigh the cost?

 

I dont claim to know the answer.

 

So here's the real question....

If an employer is looking for a Mastercam programmer. 2 guys show up and both have 5 years experience with Mastercam. 1 wants $18/hr and the other has a certification card and wants $20/hr. Which one do you think he will hire?

 

Mike Mattera

[Guest]

I think he'll offer the $18 guy $16.50 and then blow smoke up his arse, a song, a dance and a promise which will never come true about how he'll earn more once he proves his worth.

 

 

Then in 6 months months he'll go through the entire process ALL over again after the $16.50 guy walks for $17.25 and a promise down the street.

 

[Ray H.]

John, Mike

Again very good and spot on points. This is the thing though, would you agree that we as a skilled trade are getting the short end of the stick. We all know for the knowledge we have aquired throughout the years are salaries don't reflect that, right?

We do not have unions or a set standard. Like Ron said earlier about guys who are underskilled are becoming journeyman without knowing how to tram the head on a mill.

We can sit back and accept it or we can do something about it.

Everyone of us has a choice. People will choose differently of course, Only time will tell in the end. Although I know that complacency hasn't gotten any man very far.

[cadcam]

Crazy^Millman As Ray and you have stated this is not just to see if you push a few buttons on the computer.That is why part of your testing is cutting the part so feeds and speeds count and how you hold it count.

Ron I know you have had the same issue as I have running a shop and a guy comes in and says he knows how to program with mastercam and Machine.

 

After a week or so you come to find that he is lucky to be half that.

 

the Program we are talking about has levels to it.

So you get the guy that comes in and know 2d programming preaty well and says he can do killer 3d parts cuze he has played around at home or on office time, But really does not this will weed him out fast.

 

Just 2 More Cents.

[spade117]

I'm with the consensus on this so far. I would like to be able to do something like this, but if it is not nationally accepted as something worthwhile I don't think it will get its feet off the ground. If it were something that would help people advance in the field, more people would show alot more interest.