X certification questions fileded here!

[Tom Dorgan from American Precision]

Mike Freimann is an excellent teacher. He came to teach our Dealer certification class at CNC Software's home office.

[ToolMan184]

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Go back and read my earlier post yesterday about a programming offer for $17. There are a hundred jobs in this area, shops complaining they can not find qualified people.

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But its amazing at the amount of people who come looking for a job that says "I make 60K year" They just forget to tell you they work 12 hrs a day and 6 days a week and actually make $15-$16 hr. But, now they want the same 60K per year and work 45 hrs week. Its not always the EMPLOYER blowing smoke up the arse, its most often the potential EMPLOYEE. It is hard to find qualified people and it has very little to do with how much you pay them. Am I going to hire someone that says they know MasterCam and pay them $18 hr. to train them when what they told you is a lie? Absolutely not. I've had them tell me they know MasterCam, just to find out they dont even know how to use cutter comp. They have to rewrite the program about 5-6 times to get it right.

I as a shop owner would encourage my men to get a MasterCam cert. and if they are successful would even pay for it. So, not all the OWNERS are devils. Just some of them.

[Guest]

No Joe, they are not. If I implied that, I did not mean to do so.

 

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It is hard to find qualified people and it has very little to do with how much you pay them.

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See, here is where I disagree. There are people out there who ARE qualified. Most of those people are in good jobs, if you want them, you must lure them out. If owners will/can not do that, then there are in the position of having to train. You are not going to get a qualified individual if they are already making "X" number of dollars by offering them 20% less, plus the loss of benefits, it makes no sense to the proven established person to move for less. There are however situations where the opportunity can offset the loss but in many cases this is not the situation.

 

Cutter comp??? what's that

 

[AMC]

I haven't made the switch to X yet, but I'm trying.

 

Although I have made the purchace, it has proven to be a very difficult move - Noware near as easy as going from V8 to V9.

 

Although the Cert. seams great, doesnt it seem a little like CNC Software is using the Cert. program to force the switch and increase sales.

 

 

Andrew.

[within a thou]

And a lot of qualified people are also leaving the trade for greener passages because they are tired of having to work 60 hr work weeks to make 60k Sure from the owners stand point its hard to find good employees. but from an employees stand point its hard to find a good shop to work in because of greedy owners.

 

I think it would be good to have this certification program in place as much as its someone's pipe dream and the time it will take for this to be accepted will be years probably around all of us in this in this debate hang up our spaceballs for retirement.

 

The part of this I would be sceptical about is the machining this part in your facility. There are too many factors involved whether its a cat40 cat 50 horsepower rigidity how good of shape the bearings are in etc etc not all machines are created equal you can;t just walk up to a machine and get full use out of it the first day you have to have a feel for the machine. and what happens if the equipment I use on a daily basis is better then what you have in your office and I smoke one of your cutters does that mean I fail? I don;t know how you guys get accustumed to a new machine but first time I walk up to a mill I program it slow then spee it up at the control when I have found the sweet spot of the machine that lil note gets saved in the back of my head and i program for it next time knowing what the machine can do.

[Kannon]

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not all machines are created equal you can;t just walk up to a machine and get full use out of it the first day you have to have a feel for the machine.

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As touchy as my machines are....

they all have names, and usually get a spankin once a day!

I have found it helps to talk to them, and even cuss at them a bit.

[ToolMan184]

Well John, We agree to disagree. I agree I wouldnt move for less in the same area. What I am saying is...If you talk to 12 people and they all SAY they can do it. Usual 1 or 2 can do it. Its the other 10 that makes it hard on the GOOD ones. Because from an owners point, you assume they cant until they prove they can. I believe we thinking the same thing just looking at it different.

Still means my Putty cat is meaner than yours.

[Guest]

I do agree the "cannots" make it difficult for the "cans". Same thought different approach.

 

When you're a "kewl kat" you never sweat the the little stuff

 

[crazy^millman]

Well it also comes to confidence in one own ability. Someone tries to offer me less than what I make for a prove out period I tell them have a nice day. I did not get $40,000 worth of tools spend the last 20 years doing this to have to prove I know what I am doing though I do ti all the time such is life. I mean that in that people are always going to doubt you but if you let it start with the person that hires you then you let everyone else in that company doubt you as well. Certification may gives some creditablility but it falls on each of us in the interview and other porcess of selection to be hired to assert our worth. You go in thinking you are only worth $10/hr you are most likly going to get $10/hr or less. You go in looking for the best you can get and present a postive work ethic, postive work attutide and let your work speak for itself and you can do anything you need to do. I am of the idea that I will train aynone to do my job. I take pride is knowing I helped anyone better themselves and get ahead and that goes further in today world more than ever before.

 

We all know this is a dying profession and it up to people with experience to gorw those without as much experience. It takes paintence, time and general acceptance of you do it for yourself as much as doing it for your employer. Majority of employers could really care less if soemone better themselve just as long as they help the bottom line. It take people going that extra mile to make sure they get someone and get ahead in the profession. Take 5 mintues and explain something take 1 hour of your time after work if that what it takes becuase in 5 years you are not just benfiting that person or yourself you are helping this profesion as a whole.

 

Ok off the box.

[Steve Arteman]

Mike F,

What about the certified instructors that ar already certified how are they a threat to the dealers? Why can't they keep advancing to help Mastercam and Mastercam users be the best programmers,students, users in the world. That is our goal at the College of Lake County here in Illinois.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Something I have found over the years too, if they say they'll evaluate you and bump you up in 30, 60, 0r 90 days GET IT IN WRITING! And, get CLEAR objectives to get the money you should be getting walking in the door. 90% or more of the companies low ball you in the door, then say they will bump you at the end of probation and they NEVER do. It's just a lie to get you in the door. Get EVERYTHING in writing.

[kinglouie V]

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90% or more of the companies low ball you in the door, then say they will bump you at the end of probation and they NEVER do. It's just a lie to get you in the door.

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the wheels on the toolbox go round and round, round and round.....

[toolall1]

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90% or more of the companies low ball you in the door, then say they will bump you at the end of probation and they NEVER do. It's just a lie to get you in the door.

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agreed get it going in

[ToolMan184]

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It's just a lie to get you in the door.

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The way I see it, its just as much potential employees as it is employers. If you go in not trusting the man that just interviewed you to what he says why should that guy trust that you can do what you say you can do? Thats the whole problem in thins trade. EVERYONE wants it their way, seems they cant work together. So what if the owner says "OK I will put it in writing under one condition. If you cant do what you say you can then you owe me the difference in pay from what your worth to what I am paying you." Would you still take that job? Or is just one sided that all OWNERS are liers and cheats?

[bellyup]

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The way I see it, its just as much potential employees as it is employers.

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If you cant do what you say you can then you owe me the difference in pay from what your worth to what I am paying you."

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it is a two way street, and it should be based on your value to the employer. too many out there that want to throw around all the lingo and act like they're on top of the heap. then watch for a while. they're like a fancy box with nothing inside. no wonder the employers want to lowball everybody.

[ToolMan184]

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it is a two way street, and it should be based on your value to the employer.

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EXACTLY. And its different everywhere. In California that person may be worth $30 per hour here in KY maybe $17-$22. It also depends on the type of work they do.

[PeterM]

While I can see the value to programmers to have certification, I have to believe that there is little incentive for employers to have existing programmers certified. First of all your boss probably knows how good you are. Secondly, certs are a programmers ammunition for a raise, and few employers out there have any interest in paying higher salaries, period.

I can however, see the benifits to resellers and instructors, these classes will not be free, (nor should they be) and I am sure the added revinue stream would be most welcome. Peter

[kinglouie V]

OK- got to share this. When I first came to Dallas area and landed aerospace job the guy interviewing me was the head mgr. I asked for that % bump in writing and he said "ok" and I saw him scribble on the application in the area that says "applicant- don't write below this line". Long story short, he was fired before my review, and when it came and the money didn't I demanded to see the application and where "he put it in writing" and there it was....scribble. get it? I didn't, of course after 9/11 it didn't matter, I went fishing for 9mos. and enjoyed the hell out of it.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Here's why I'm gun shy...

 

I was working for a HDD Platter Mfr. making $14 per hour. It was a pretty boring job after I learned the robots and stuff. My shift was Thurs., Fri., Sat., and every other Sunday 6:00am to 6:00pm. So I had Mon. to Wed. off. I wanted to get back into a machine shop so I applied to this company as a Programmer (the ad in the paper said Programmer). I go, I interview, they say they need setup guys not programmers. I say fine, I'll work my way up. So they agree to pay me $10 cash under the table (though I did report this as income on my taxes). I'm there for about a month I think part time. They like me and want to hire me full time. So we go in and talk nuts and bolts. Money, benefits, etc... They offer me $12.50 to start, I agree because my commute went from 45 minutes to about 10 if I hit every signal and that's worth a lot to me. I negotiate my health benefits to start in 30 days as opposed to the standard 90. So I agree and I give notice to my full time company. I start at the new company and when you start at an hourly position, you usually don;t get your first pay check until the second pay period after you get there. I want to say it was 2 weeks when I got my paycheck, (it's been more than 10 years). I look and they are paying me $10/hr. WTH???? So I go and talk to DICK (his real name is Richard) and ask what's up with me getting $10/hr? He says that's what we agreed on. Bull $#!+ I said. Why the hell would I take a $10,000 per pay pay cut if I didn't have to??? He said he does not know whay I would take that much of a pay cut but that we agreed on $10. Then he says to me "... Oh, your benefits cannot start effective after 30 days, something about laws (I was so pissed I did not hear the full explanation). Needless to say I left that week. This is why I want everthing in writing. BTW, the name of the company this happed at was Mikana Manufacturing in San Dimas California. Run for your life if you ever hear of the place hiring. Their company is run so poorly that they are not eligible for Training at the NTMA, their turnover exceeds 20% anually.

[ToolMan184]

James,

 

I totally understand where you are coming from. Like anything else, there are lemons in everything. But, some of us do try to make things better.

Most shop owners would be afraid to help their employees get certified in MC. I look at it in a different way. What if something drastic happened to my company? What happens to my guys? I really dont worry about them leaving, they know we do everything for them possible. If they find something alot better, I know I done everything I possibly could.

I think this topic got a little off course.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Of course it got of course.

 

Personally I don't know what if any affect it will have on the industry. AutoCAD has been pushing Certification for years and I think I've seen 2 or 3 want ads requesting AutoCAD certification out of the HUNDREDS of ads I've seen. Then again AutoCAD only has slightly more seats out there than Mastercam

 

Personally, I would do the certification only if I had the time and money beacuase I can GUARANTEE that having it will in no way affect my earnings potential so it would more like icing on the cake.

[within a thou]

we are near 100 posts to this thread and have not heard a word from other resellers I would be really interested in what the folks at in house barefoot etc.... think about this certification and where they see this going its a nice thought but to implify a system hat will be so widely accepted sure it may come some day but looks to be years away

 

and for the back and forth pitter patter spat between james and toolman for every employer with a horror story of a employee they have hired there is a employee with one of his own about an employer. Skill is one thing but the way everyone in a compnay gels is very important also if thee is a bad vibe on the floor it will show opn the bottom line for all parties involved

[kinglouie V]

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Their company is run so poorly that they are not eligible for Training at the NTMA

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ouch! and the chapter I came up in would probably not be that picky so that's sayin' something!

[ToolMan184]

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and for the back and forth pitter patter spat between james and toolman for every employer with a horror story of a employee they have hired

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I see at as 2 guys that care about the trade and dont want to see it die and go to CHINA. Not going to put words in James's mouth, but think he feels the same way. We all have horror stories from employees to employers.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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...I see at as 2 guys that care about the trade and dont want to see it die...

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+1,000,000

 

ABSOLUTELY!!!