Solids Yes or No??

[jspangler]

Hi

This is a pretty vague question, but hopefully all you solids guys out there can help me. I have been told by lots of MC guys that I should get solids, but I still don't know how it's going to save me time or money.

Right now I have Mill Level 1, V8, and mainly cut header flanges for my own parts( 3/8" thick x 3-4" steel plate).

 

99.9% of what I do is 2D. How will solids help? What are the pros and cons, and the learning curve?

 

Thanks

 

John

[Michael Reynolds]

Hi John!

 

If you ever do pocketing around islands, solids is the way to go! No more chaining.....

 

Hope this helps!

 

Mike R.

[JAMMAN]

quote:

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and the learning curve?

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I have only played with solids but found it easier than surfaces. I was shown boolean add and subtract, that's about the only curve. If you are a hardcore MC user (even 2d) you'll have it down in a couple hours.

 

Besides giving you a better representation of exactly what the part is going to look like, for what you say you are doing I don't think it will speed you up much.

 

If you have the money by all means get it.

 

Michael, I'll try that island thing and maybe I'll change my mind.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Even if I had a Level 1 System, I would add solids without a doubt. The ease of design changes alone would make me go with solids, and the tool path stuff is just icing on the cake.

 

JM2C

[cadcam]

And to go along with James. (Hey were have you been bud?)

 

Like James has said to me in the past.

It is much easer to make fixtures and tool plates.

I use solid any time I can, I use surface only when really needed.

 

I program at least 5 to 6 days a week and wish I had solids along time ago.

 

JM2C

[bryan.davis]

And now for the realists opinion.

 

Solids is great, as you see people who use it wouldnt use anything else, I wouldnt use anything else FOR CAD (BTW I dont use mastrcam solids for CAD as its overpriced and under functioned for CAD), but thats because I like to reap non machining benefits from solids, however if you are on a tight budget and want functionality then.....

 

1 solids will give you no more 2D and 2 1/2D functionality that you already have with L1

 

2 I repeat, with solids there is nothing you cant do with wireframe L1

 

3 It takes a little bit longer to generate a 2 1/2 D solid than it does to create a basic wireframe, with experience this isnt much longer.

 

4 Once you have a solid image of the part you are instantly able to recognise the part as what it is, and can instantly notice any irregularities, REMEBER WHAT YO SEE IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU GET

 

5 with solids its easier to generate correct machining profiles and a lot of the potential pitfalls that a competent programer would be aware of are practically automated out of the process, its very difficult to 'forget' to chain that island as Mastercam will recognise it as an island providing the guy who generated the solid put the island there in the first place... This point is important because in my experience the guy who forgets to chain the island in the machining profile is usually the same guy who forgets to add the island to the solid.

 

6 Everything you hear about not having to chain this or that is misleading, the truth is that unless you are supplied with a solid file you WILL have to create the solid and in the process of creating the solid you will have to chain that which everyone else says you dont have to chain!!!, the bottom line is that the onus is moved from the machining operations to the solids generation operations.

 

My bottom line is that solids for 2D is extreamly over-rated, Im extreamly dissapointed to the point of being dissafected with mastercam over V9, most of the functionality that V9 adds is solids based, yet us non solids users are expected to foot the bill at £#### and then pay an extra £#### to use this functionality, the cost of all this added functionality should go onto the bill for those who have already purchased solids, not expect everyone else to pay for it.

 

Consequence is that Ive take the discision to now allow mastrercam to lapse which will enable me to take a fresh look at better value CAD/CAM packages a few years down the line!

 

[ 05-28-2002, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: Webmaster ]

[Scott Bond]

YES

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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And now for the realists opinion.

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This should red "...and now for the pessimists(sp?) opinion.

 

Many of Bryan's points are valid. True, you do not NEED it to generate toolpath but it makes most 2-D toolpaths easier to generate, i.e. pick the floor of a pocket and if the the islands are correct you'll get the desired result easier. From the "realist" side of things, Mastercam solids on average saves me at least 8 hours per project vs. having to create surface models. The reason I have to create full 3-D models is that I have to catch egineering's mistakes, If I miss their mistakes, it costs ME, I have to re-program, stay late, etc...

 

So, bottom line from a guy who uses solids every single day I program, "It's a tool so valuable, I would not even consider working at a company that did not have Solids."

 

JMHO

 

Jay,

 

I had 4 of my wisdom teeth pulled last thursday so I've been layed up for about a week. I went to work monday but came home a bit after lunch and I've not even taught this week, though tonight I will. I'm feeling much better today.

[cadcam]

quote:

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The most glaring ommision from MC solids as a CAD package is a layout mode, for the uninitiated, this is where you can simply create a traditional style 2D drawing from the solid model, including scaled views froma any angle, hidden detail views, sectioned views and indeed any of the 'tools' used by traditional 2D draftsmen to comprehensively communicate the design on a 2D drawing, including dimensioning, tolerancing etc. This is an invaluable tool, with it I can create a fully detailed and dimensioned drawing of most any solid modle witin a couple of hours, and I feel that this omission alone seals the argument.

---

This quote from Brian, Davis.

 

I know this is one of your thoughts on not to buy Solids.

But now I have to say this not true.

We can do all this at this time and easily.

 

So do you feel that solids in general are a waste of time for 2D programmers or you are just making this statement about MC Solids?

 

[ 05-24-2002, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: cadcam ]

[Kenneth Potter]

For simple 2d stuff vs the price you pay......forget it!

 

IF your working from a solid Import" Pro -E" then i can see some uses for mc solids. Clamps ,fixture details ,vise & jaws..bolts .

 

This is just my own opinion.

[Trevor Bailey]

I use solids on a daily basis. I also use the surfacing features. However, I always try to use solids over surfacing just for the time factor alone. MC solids is a powerful add-on in its on respect. It was not made to take the place of a companies design package. One should not even start to compare MC's solids to anything else. Obviously it has some great benefits, but it does lack in other areas. As James said earlier, I personnally could not work with out it. I construct some pretty outragious jigs and fixtures. Without the help of solids and having to design them with wireframe, HAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! No way. It would literally take hundreds of man hours. Check out the link below. It is a neck for a banjo that I just completed using 80% solids, the rest surfaces. Doing this part completely with wireframe would take at least 75% longer: Banjo neck

[cadcam]

Update to trevors link.

Picture of banjo neck

 

Sorry Trevor but you can not link to a picture from a FTP.

Has to be on a web server.

 

[ 05-25-2002, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: cadcam ]

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Jay, convert that thing to a JPEG or something, sheesh. Not everybody has DSL ya know

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Actually I did it for you. I uploaded it to the cadcamconsulting folder in the ftp. 38k JPEG vs. a 1.4MB file size.

 

[cadcam]

Now I have to change ervery thing Trevor did.

 

I will log in to the server now and take care of the switch.

[cadcam]

here it is again.

 

Update to trevors link.

Picture of banjo neck

 

the old link earler was updated to.

[bryan.davis]

At the time that was true, it was also once upon a time true that mastercam would not work in windows .. Your point?

 

MasterCAM as a CAD package still has a long way to go, whilst MasterCAM now has a layout mode it is still way under functioned, and its CAD competitors have moved on as well, anyone who actually consides MasterCAM for CAD is wasting their money.

 

My advice remains the same today as it has done all along, dont bother with MasterCAM solids, save the cash to buy a solids CAD package (and I still reccomend Cadkey), this especially is true if you are not using L3 MasterCAM. By doing this you reap all the benefits of solids that do really save time in the long run, yet dont have to pay through the nose for MasterCAM solids.

 

Better still hold on to your cash for a year or so, there are a number of CAM packages that have really proven themselves in recent years where solids is a core feature and not some overpriced add on!

[Trevor Bailey]

I do not understand why you keep mentioning the "over-priced" stuff. You are talking about MC solids right. There is nothing over-priced about it. I have sold and supported MC for some time now, and I do not think you arguement is viable to the original question. It is obvious that you have some issues with MC, so why dont you just leave this forum and be done with it! As I said in my earlier thread, MC's solids is not trying to compete with anyone in the CAD world. It is simply a nice add-on. Is this hard for you to understand. I could ramble on, but hopefully you get the point. You are starting to be like the "other guy" we all despised. This is a useful forum for people using MC in a working and educational enviornment trying to get help. We are not members of this forum to hear MC get bashed by a person who obviously has issues for what ever reason. I personally believe it is time for the administrators to step in. Why do we let this guy badger productive forum contibuters and persue negative measures against MC?

 

Sorry for venting, but enough is enough.

[d0gFartz]

I couldnt agree more Trevor!,besides that last time i checked my title bar it said Mastercam not Mastercad.Yes it would be nice to be a little stronger on the cad side such as parametrically but its getting the job done na d solids only costing $###.## right now its insane not to have,one job will prolly pay for it

just my 2 cents

 

[ 05-28-2002, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Webmaster ]

[Kenneth Potter]

HEy Dog Fartz

 

You Paid $###.## ------> for MASTERCAM solids ??????

 

[ 05-28-2002, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: Webmaster ]

[gcode]

I recieved an email from my Mastercam dealer offering the Solids module at half price ($###)

last week.

 

Since I purchased solids a couple of years ago, this latest offer doesn't do me much good.

 

That said, even if you only used solids as a visual aid, they would be worth the full price .

I wouldn't even think of owning MC without the solids module.

 

[ 05-28-2002, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Webmaster ]

[bryan.davis]

your right Trevor. I do have issues with MasterCAM, and if I cant air them here where else can I air them?

 

For the first time in a long while Ive found myself unable to justify upgrading a product that Ive had a long relationship with, and have found that their upgrade policy has become cynical.

 

take V9, V9 does has a lot of nice added functionality should you happen to use solids, if you dont use solids then the added functionality is limited, and when you consider the added post work required to take advintage of it, it verges on being a liability!.

 

So why must V9 users pay £#### for the upgrade whilst solids users only pay an added £###, surely theyve got that backwards!

 

Of course I forget that there are a number of people here who have a vested interest in talking up the product, well, Ive got news for you guys, there are some of us out here you are not happy, and have been seriously considering better alternatives.

 

Dont get me wrong, I agree with you entirely MasterCAM isnt a CAD package, and should never be marketed as a CAD package (its a pity some dissagree!), and comparing it to CAD packages is unfair, I appreciate that there are some users who dont need full CAD functionality and that there are benefits in having a CAM package that can do CAD, BUT, there are a lot of people who need FULL CAD functionality and CAM, and my advice is always DONT go with MCAM solids to give you solids CAD as it is underfuctioning for the price, I agree that the functionality is increasing, but so is that of its CAD competitors, and for the money I save on solids I can buy a fully functioning solids CAD package!

 

Now you may not like my frank assesment, well thats unfortunate, but the guy who started this thread asked for advice and opinions, I think what he really wanted was non partizan advice and not that from individuals who have a vested interest in talking up the product, after all the guy already has a dealer trying to flog the package to him!

 

So now MasterCAM are selling Solids at only $### (Im still being quoted £####!), this is good news, a step in the right direction and when they stop this cynical policy and integrate solids as a core feature where it belongs! then and only THEN will I again rate MasterCAM as being the best value package on the market!

 

And as far as what you think this forum should or should not be, ask yourself if you really want it to become a rose tinted world where everthing MasterCAM is good everthing else BAD, that attitude reduces the forum to little other than a marketing mouthpiece rather than a place where people can freely express their opinions good or bad!

 

And as for what others may or have been up to here, then I appologise for Ive been away for a while, and dont like being tarred with other peoples brushes, those who remember me know that my opinions are always forthright, but justifiable, if only because I am a MasterCAM customer with a strong view as to the direction I want to develope the CAE and manufacturing policies within my company, policies that have enabled the company to expand and fend off direct competition from South East Asia where the vast majority of our western counterparts are floundering and going under.

 

[ 05-28-2002, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: Webmaster ]

[Smit]

IMHO

I don't post often, but I do read often. There is a lot of good information here from many knowledgeable people. The main value of this forum (to me) is the many varying opinions that are presented. Reading and considering them all, forming my own opinions with the input from all sources. Rather than having someone leave the forum because they post "unpopular" opinions I am more inclined to say thank you for taking the time to post your opinions. It is even sometimes a breath of fresh air to hear something that doesn't sound like a sales pitch. Mastercam is a fine programming software, I've been using it for about 7 years now.

Getting back on topic, I like the solids package. But unless you always have to create your own geometry I don't think it will pay for itself in 2D work.

[Webby]

Removed prices from this thread - leaving in the 'half price' description.

 

CNC Software discourages any discussion of pricing over the Internet, and we will respect their wishes on this forum.

 

Around the globe product prices may fluctuate for various reasons including but not limited to economic conditions, varying service structures, international translation costs, and distribution costs.

 

[ 05-28-2002, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Webmaster ]

[Webby]

Keeping an eye on this thread...

 

The forum is reseller-run with CNC Software's blessing and promotion. We happily follow their recommendations regarding some of the forum policies. As a Member, you live by a few rules here, as detailed in our Forum Guidelines.

 

We stay away from complaints about resellers, we don't quote prices, we try to be polite, and when we offer criticism, we keep in the constructive realm. It's the price we pay for a vibrant on-line community. There's a delicate balance that is [surprisingly] rarely challenged.

 

Right now bryan.davis is rubbing a few people the wrong way, but I'm not convinced his comments are out of line. When you boil off the 'venting', he's saying that in his opinion Solids does not compete with the functionality offered by other CAD packages, so the pricing shouldn't put it in direct competition with said packages. That's good direct end user feedback for CNC Software.

 

Philosophies regarding web forums are varied. FastCompany.com had an interesting article regarding web use - Internet 101. Here's a snip:

 

quote:

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Look at the Royal Dutch/Shell site [www.shell.com]. There, visitors can engage in online conversations on a wide range of social issues. Many of the comments are critical of the company, but Shell doesn't interfere. The company understands that it can't own the Web. In a way, that's a huge -- and rare -- leap forward.

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The Internet is still quite young for some industries including ours. I think we're only at an early stage of 'web enlightenment'. You may see the rules and expectations change in the years to come. For now, I think things here are working well (for all parties invovled - developer,resellers,educators,users), with only minor posting restrictions.