Esprit and MasterCAM

[Hardmill]

Ill let you know, im workin on it now.

Every thing else is pretty much complete.

 

Thats a pretty simply op on an NL so we'll see how

MC takes care of it.

 

 

PEACE

[Dave.L]

I should add that I'm not one to be impressed by the pretty graphics of the machine, but in the case of the Mori NL, having simulation to avoid crashes is VERY important.

[Josh Kinney -Elite Engineering]

I heard some Mori Distributor are not so happy with Esprit, seems Esprit is leaving it to the dealers to figure out how to train people on the software. There answer...send them to Chicago...

 

 

We purchased Esprit over MasterCam since we have a swiss lathe. The owners and myself were assured after one week in Chicago I would be ready to roll right into production the following Monday. Now were not talking multi spindle/ multi axis, 5 axis or anything crazy, just 3axis lathe and 4 axis mill.

 

By day 3 I already had a huge list of enhancement requests (Like a redo button.....) and had found a major bug that somehow nobody else noticed.. So on the 4th day I had to call my boss and tell him there is no way in hell I can machine the parts we do daily on Esprit. Just peel mill alone can make or break a job for us. Slot cutting tungsten without it is ridiculous, let alone the lathe retracts take forever to figure out what will not cause a crash. I even had to turn off stock update on a lathe ID groove toolpath because it kept cutting the face of my part off.

 

So in the end I'm left with ZERO training on surface toolpaths and I spent every spare minute during the week trying to get a specific surface roughing toolpath and nobody could produce what would be a simple core roughing toolpath in MasterCam. It wasn't until Wednesday the following week that a tech support guy with his kid screaming in the background got me an acceptable toolpath, how he did it I'm unsure.

 

In the end we asked for a refund, ate about $6,000 and purchased MasterCam.....

 

One more thing....try machining the Bottom of a part in Esprit Mill without specifying a 4th axis in your machine config and a huge retract height..You can't machine the bottom of a part on a 3axis machine, it will error out....

 

 

Anyways, I'm sure it works great for some people, not for us.

[Dave.L]

quote:

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One more thing....try machining the Bottom of a part in Esprit Mill without specifying a 4th axis in your machine config and a huge retract height..You can't machine the bottom of a part on a 3axis machine, it will error out....

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From what I've seen, they handle this much more realistic then MC. But, I've only seen a little so far.

[Hardmill]

Nice reply Josh, as Ive said before its a different beast.

Make some stuff way to easy to do and others it

can be a complete abortion.

 

Both software together will just about get anything done. Cuz one by itself can never be the do it all work-horse.

 

 

PEACE

[Josh Kinney -Elite Engineering]

Thanks Hardmill.

 

Dave,

They do handle it well if your actually using the 4th axis, the problem is when your not and you just want to simply reset your WCS and machine the backside of a model without flipping the part and losing your stock recognition. It HAS TO initiate a rotation both in the toolpath and simulation to get to the back of a part. It's so absolute in it's multiaxis capability that flexibility is lost. Like I told the instructor, my operator will walk over, take the part out of the vise, flip it and machine the back, do you see any a-axis rotation? His solution... make a separate post for the machine without an a-axis, same thing that Gibbs has to do...

 

I'm not bashing the product, I just value the members here and want to pass on my experiences so they can take the information and make a wiser decision for themselves.

 

Josh-

[Charlie Pierson]

quote:

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At some point we plan to add swiss turn capabilities and MC cannot provide a solution for that.

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We've been doing Swiss turning w/MC since V5

[Dave.L]

Josh,

 

Take a look at this:

 

PS, I hate to use this example but it's the one easiest to get to:

 

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu89/jo...Simulation1.jpg

 

PS, I am not saying its better, just saying they have a different approach.

 

As far as swiss turn, I am sure it's all doable but I hear people say Esprit and Partmaker are the leaders for swiss.

[Joe788]

Dave, you have to keep in mind, that picture is of a canned demo from an instructional.

[Josh Kinney -Elite Engineering]

One other thing, organization of the Op manager, breaking up ops into groups, assigning different group names along with different NC File names/program numbers. Multiple machines in one file and simulating the whole process in one session. I know MasterCam is not perfect but if they got there sh-t together with Mill/Turn (Which I have a feeling they will) and got serious about stock automation and stock state transfers between machines they could blow the competition out of the water.

[Dave.L]

Guys, I will be reviewing more over the next few weeks, so until I have more knowledge I will hold off on comments. For now I will leave it with:

 

I know each system will have pros and cons, each users and company will need to do what's right for them based on there needs and requirements.

 

I have been listening to everthing that's been said and I take it all in.

[Josh Kinney -Elite Engineering]

Dave,

I would suggest going to the week long training session before issuing a P.O. at least get some sort of agreement that payment is pending until you receive proper training, we had to fight to get our money back and ended up paying for my trip to Chicago and the cost of the training sessions. I guess we paid to do a REAL evaluation of the software.

[Josh Kinney -Elite Engineering]

One more thing to look at..

 

When selecting depths from features of a solid you must "smash" the solid to geometry. There is no way to pick edges or end points on a solid without first creating geometry. Also no "Dynamic Analyze" to check faces of a model.

 

Just some more food for thought.

 

Josh-

[gaijin_2007]

I'm sorry but I've used Esprit, Partmaker and MasterCAM in the past and even for simple turning I'd take Partmaker over the rest every day.

Taking into account the recent work they've done with regards to chaining turning geometry direct off a solid model and the way their process table works means that IMHO it is way faster to get what you want whether it's simple turning or multi-axis mill-turn.

Add in the fact the latest version can import PowerMILL toolpaths (and even has some of them built-in) for doing some real complicated milling then that's the way I'd be looking at going for sure.

[Dave.L]

Josh,

 

Everyone learns differently and at different rates. The one skill I acquired from college is the ability to learn on my own. Formal training does not work well for me for a variety of reasons. Some trainers are good, others are not. Some groups of students learn fast, others slow. I have learned to program g-code, learned various CAD systems, an ERP software amongst many other software systems and some computer programming all self taught. It’s now been about 6 months that I have been using Solidworks with zero training and I am making some major headway.

 

BTW, Self taught = knowing where to go and what resources to pull from, this forum is a prime example. I read many posts here, many that I don’t even comment in. I have learned to watch for post from certain members and I have gained tremendous knowledge that way. I tend to learn in small detailed chunks and that way I rarely need to revisit something. For me this approach works very well, for others it may not. In this fashion, I learn to use the tools as I need them and I then retain those skills much better.

 

I have viewed the e-apprentice site listed advertised here and although I have yet to try it, I do like the approach of specific topic videos. Some day I am sure I will give that method a shot.

 

My approach has proven to work well for me and I can tell you I catch 99.9% of my mistakes before passing them on to someone else (except spelling)

[Josh Kinney -Elite Engineering]

I hear ya, I learned everything I know about MasterCam by trial and error.

 

The reason I said go to the class is you can learn-test drive the software and make an informed decision if it works for you before purchasing. I think I'll do that on any future investments... I did the 30day Eval and after 30days I just ended up confused, as Esprit is soooo much different then MasterCam I couldn't get a good assesment. After 5 days of training it was painfully obvious that it wasn't right for us.

 

Josh-

[crazy^millman]

Dave guess what that is most of us on this forum. Why do you think we help others so much to keep them from having to go down the same road we all did learning through doing on the job. Nothing worse than trying to get a job done while learning how to do it at the same time. My classes have been the school of hard knocks and on the job training. Learning is subjective to anyone and as a teacher I see where you have to always adjust your training to be middle of the road. Allow those who are faster to move at their pace while picking up those who are falling behind.

 

I think with anything you can learn it the trick is having the time to do it and still get the work that needs to get done. Choose wisely and it will provide what you need. I know very little about Esprit, but like I said if I want to keep employed down the road looks like I will either have to learn it or get left behind and so far I been keeping up so not about to fall behind now becuase of Mastercam's limitations.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

You'll either need Esprit or PartMaker Ron, that's for sure. Kinda sucks to say that being that I'm such a fanboi and all but troof is troof regardless...

 

Oh, as of right now, if you're considering PartMaker, hope you're not too attached to a 3D Navigation device. Not supported. On the horizon but my verson does not.

 

JM2C

[Dave.L]

James, fanboi, LMAO

[BrianCNC]

To anyone that has the new Mori's with Esprit on the machine, how do you guys keep the operators from trying to do their own programming. We deal with that enough with CAPPS.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...new Mori's with Esprit on the machine, how do you guys keep the operators from trying to do their own programming...

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ROFL!!!!

 

I'm sorry but that has got to be the most moronic thing I've seen on a machine tool... EVER! As if there's not enough going with, oh, I don't know... CUTTING PARTS, to add some bufoonery like a CAM system in there too... Me thinks to the boys in Japan are hittin' the sake just a little too hard. I'm not sayin',... I'm just sayin'.

[Greg Williams]

I believe having the CAM system on the control will not be all that it is cracked up to be.

 

Here are a few issues as I see it

 

1 - Most parts cut on lathes that I see are simple shapes, pins, bushs, shafts etc. Now anyone who has ever programmed a lathe knows that IGF/Mazatrol/Shopturn/FAPT etc handles these parts with ease generally programming Turn, thread, groove, and bore parts takes between 1 and 2 mins add a few tapped holes and a square/Hex shape takes about another 1-2 mins so after 4-5 mins the operator is ready to make chips. Is having a full CAD/CAM system going to make this process any faster

 

2 - Is the Mori control x64? I see no mention of it so at a guess it must be 32BIT. Now anyone who has used any CAD/CAM system on the market will know that when generating toolpaths the PC is essentailly at 100% usage, So if we generate a toolpath while cutting a part what will happen? Which process takes priority? Will the machine movment slow down at all due to this usage?.

 

3 - I think standing up at the machine while programming the part for a few hours would not be much fun.

 

4 - Can extra post processors be added to the mori Install, What happens if you have one other brand of machine?

 

5 - What happens after the 2 years mori support has finished, Is there a maintainance agreement if so what will it cost to the end user?

 

Now as I said this is just my opinion and I am sure there are answers to my qestions but these are the issues that come to mind after a few minutes thinking

[Guest SAIPEM]

Esprit has a very small install base in the US so support from a real VAR is going to be difficult.

The drawing and trimming of wireframe geometry is so arcane that you might as well be drawing with Gibbs.

 

Esprit is already a bit of an odd-ball system to begin with so I think Mori really blew it with this.

They have been obsessed with the success of Mazatrol for years but Esprit on a Machine Tool is nothing more than an accident waiting to happen.

[BrianCNC]

I am glad that I am not the only one who thinks this way.

[Dave.L]

I have been told the machine will come with a seat of Esprit that can be used at your desk. I dont know anymore details.