Esprit and MasterCAM

[Hardmill]

quote:

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Esprit has a very small install base in the US so support from a real VAR is going to be difficult.

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I hope you got first hand experience with this statement.

Everytime ive had an issue these guys not only

resolved it or found one of their guy to do so,

but they did so in a very timely manner.

 

Their response to issues on their forum is outstanding

to say the least, from what has been my experience.

 

 

PEACE

[MotorCityMinion]

"how do you guys keep the operators from trying to do their own programming..."

 

"I'm sorry but that has got to be the most moronic thing I've seen on a machine tool... EVER! As if there's not enough going with, oh, I don't know... CUTTING PARTS, to add some bufoonery like a CAM system in there too... Me thinks to the boys in Japan are hittin' the sake just a little too hard. I'm not sayin',... I'm just sayin'."

 

I left a shop after being there 7 years. They tried to force me to program in Mazatrol and I hated it. Found a new job in 3 days, then went for it. I agree that in a mid to large size shop, off line programming is the way to go but I learned quite a bit programming EIA at the controls. This is one way of getting it to stick and it also helps to spot the guys with potential. Some may see this next statement as silly but I believe part of being a good programmer off line includes the learning curves associated with programming manually. I very rarely eyeball code anymore, but the skill set is still there. I'm also sure there are peeps that can program from a CAM package, without that type of experience, and have done quite well. If I never had the opportunity to program at the machine in my first few years of the trade, I probably would have become board and gone into another line of work. Just an opinion.

[Guest SAIPEM]

quote:

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I hope you got first hand experience with this statement.

Everytime ive had an issue these guys not only

resolved it or found one of their guy to do so,

but they did so in a very timely manner.

 

Their response to issues on their forum is outstanding

to say the least, from what has been my experience.

---

I do.

 

Let's be real.

The install base is for Esprit is minuscule compared to MC.

It is simply impossible for a VAR network to have penetrated every region of the US with resources to support the entire install base.

The fact you get good help might have to do with the fact you are in SoCal and so is DP.

Calling SoCal at 8AM PST isn't an option someone in Florida whose Esprit on their new Mori is down at 8:00AM EST.

 

If the forums are sufficient for you, fine.

As a machine tool customer, I want to know that my support is coming LOCALLY.

There is simply no way Mori or their distributors can or will support a CAM system even if it is in the control.

 

Esprit on Mori-Seiki will become a boat anchor for end-users and will have all the success that Gibbs did with Fadal's 32-MP control.

[Dave.L]

I have heard nothing other than Esprit's support to we excellent. If you need support immediatly, when I think you may be in trouble with any product. Even a VAR is not sitting around waiting for your call. My MC VAR is very responsive but not always avaialble and I would not expect him to be. He has other customers to serve. While DP is in CA, they do have other offices.

[crazy^millman]

code:

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Esprit on Mori-Seiki will become a boat anchor for end-users and will have all the success that Gibbs did with Fadal's 32-MP control.   

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If Mastercam had an MMT product I would agree, but something is always better than nothing!!!!

 

[Hardmill]

quote:

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While DP is in CA, they do have other offices.

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That and issues are resolved on their forum even

though its no where near as large as this one.

 

Im just sayin when you call or email the response

time is very good.

 

Not our fault your side of the country is 3 hrs off.

 

 

PEACE

[Guest SAIPEM]

I'm in no way knocking DP or the Esprit product.

I'm simply making a statement about the reality of support for CAM software as a MACHINE TOOL customer.

If Mori is putting that software in their control then they can expect all the grief that comes with that decision.

 

One thing has been universal in my experience with Machine Tool companies.

They want no part of selling or supporting CAM software as part of their business.

They want to sell a machine and that is it.

That isn't likely to change.

It won't surprise me in the least to hear, a year from now, that Mori has stopped doing this as customers simply aren't using the software.

 

This initiative by Mori may help DP increase its total number of seats in the field.

It will be essentially meaningless for increasing the numbers of people actually using the product as support WILL be an issue.

[BrianCNC]

--------------------------------------------------

"I left a shop after being there 7 years. They tried to force me to program in Mazatrol and I hated it. Found a new job in 3 days, then went for it. I agree that in a mid to large size shop, off line programming is the way to go but I learned quite a bit programming EIA at the controls. This is one way of getting it to stick and it also helps to spot the guys with potential. Some may see this next statement as silly but I believe part of being a good programmer off line includes the learning curves associated with programming manually. I very rarely eyeball code anymore, but the skill set is still there. I'm also sure there are peeps that can program from a CAM package, without that type of experience, and have done quite well. If I never had the opportunity to program at the machine in my first few years of the trade, I probably would have become board and gone into another line of work. Just an opinion."

------------------------------------------------

 

I see this side of it also. I started out here programming the machines I ran at the control before moving up to a programmer and I also believe in order to be a great programmer you need to know the manual code inside and out. However, I see all the problems associated with a bunch of operators doing their own thing, not to mention time wasted on the floor. On the flip side if none of the operators program anything--there goes the talent pool from which we hire the programmers. Catch-22.

[Zoober]

I may have missed someone mention it, but this programming on a machine thing is only good for tool rooms and one offs, IMO.

If you are programming on a machine, chances are, the spindle will be stopped more than if done off-line.

The "programmer" will eventually hit reset while programming, cause that's the what we are all used to on a CNC. Ooooopps! ESCAPE!! Not RESET!! I did this many times programming FAPT on a lathe back in the day.

In this day and age, if you are running production, the spindle is king. That's why more and more shops are going lights out, and operatorless.

Gimme a shop that programs at the machine, and I'll show you one that will take his work.

CAM does not belong on a machine, I don't care how good it is.

[BrianCNC]

I agree 100 percent. I was just responding to MotorCityMinion that it is harder to hire anybody off the shop floor to program that has not done any programming. However using CAPPS, Mazatrol, or Esprit built into the controller is not teaching anyone manual programming in my opinion.

 

I apologize for taking this thread off topic.

[Dave.L]

Fyi, CAPPS outputs g code and then in most cases that code needs some hand editing to tune the code, I disagree with that part. Now, Mazatrol as good as it is does not teach anyone g code

[DavidB]

quote:

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1 - Most parts cut on lathes that I see are simple shapes, pins, bushs, shafts etc. Now anyone who has ever programmed a lathe knows that IGF/Mazatrol/Shopturn/FAPT etc handles these parts with ease generally programming Turn, thread, groove, and bore parts takes between 1 and 2 mins add a few tapped holes and a square/Hex shape takes about another 1-2 mins so after 4-5 mins the operator is ready to make chips. Is having a full CAD/CAM system going to make this process any faster

 

2 - Is the Mori control x64? I see no mention of it so at a guess it must be 32BIT. Now anyone who has used any CAD/CAM system on the market will know that when generating toolpaths the PC is essentailly at 100% usage, So if we generate a toolpath while cutting a part what will happen? Which process takes priority? Will the machine movment slow down at all due to this usage?.

 

3 - I think standing up at the machine while programming the part for a few hours would not be much fun.

 

4 - Can extra post processors be added to the mori Install, What happens if you have one other brand of machine?

 

5 - What happens after the 2 years mori support has finished, Is there a maintainance agreement if so what will it cost to the end user?

---

1- You’re correct. That is why Mori Seiki is still including the conversational part of the control for simple parts. If you look at the machines that will include ESPRIT for MAPPS, they’re the high-end, complicated machines like the NMV, the NT, and the NZ. The idea is to have a CAM system available (with the proven post processors and machine skin data for simulation) ready to go for complicated multi-tasking, multi-axis machining, or 5-axis milling operations – things that can’t be done easily without a CAM system.

 

 

2- I am not 100% sure, but I do not think the control is 64-bit. There is a way to actually run ESPRIT outside of the control by using a “floating license”. For example, a user can actually use ESPRIT on a stand-alone PC to program. This is done by “borrowing” a network license from the machine tool. Obviously the computing power of a PC can be much greater than the MAPPS control (plus easier to upgrade disk space, memory, graphics board, etc.) I’m not sure about testing that has been done inside of Mori Seiki regarding to machine slow down during ESPRIT usage. I doubt this will be an issue as I think a large majority of users would choose to program ESPRIT using a PC.

 

 

3- It’s not. That is why the user can run ESPRIT on a PC instead of the machine tool control. This is standard configuration.

 

4- Each ESPRIT for MAPPS on-machine license is configured with the full set of ESPRIT’s capability for the machine on which it is installed. No other machine may be programmed with this license. For example, if a customer buys a NMV 5000 without the turning option, the ESPRIT license would be only program 2-5 axis milling. The post would be for the NMV 5000. No other post processor would be able to run on that copy of ESPRIT. If a customer needs more posts processors or runs other brands of machines, then the Esprit local reseller would step in and give the customer options regarding buying additional licenses of ESPRIT.

 

5- When the agreement expires, the end user may purchase SMC at 12% of the current list price of standard ESPRIT for the configuration of ESPRIT they are operating. So for example, if the license would sell for $10,000, the annual software maintenance contract cost would be $1200/year.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

I still think it's psycho to have that stuff residing on a Machine Control. I did when I worked for Mori and told the powers that be the same thing. Not an especially popular opinion especially with all the $$$$$$$$ they put into DTL but hey. I spoke my piece about it amnd felt like I was looking out for the guy that actually has to run that crap on a day in and day out basis.

 

JM2C

[Guest SAIPEM]

I've been spending a lot of time with Esprit for the past couple of weeks.

 

Generating 2D toolpaths from solids is an exercise of Rube Goldberg proportions.

 

It is impossible to simply snap to the center of a hole edge.

 

It is impossible to extract a single edge curve from a solid.

 

It reminds me of the way TekSoft required you to make chains for toolpaths.

 

The Wirefame geometry creation is really bad.

No Trim or Extend like any real CAD package.

 

The Solids have ZERO history so the modeling is all but worthless.

You can't merge 2 solid bodies into 1 with a boolean operation.

 

You can't merge an existing CAM file into a current file.

 

It does, however, work very well for Mill/Turn applications and the posts are relatively easy to edit.

 

I despise the fact that the tool library isn't a library at all.

You can't go in and pick a CNMG-432 with a MCLNR-16-4-D holder.

 

No NPT, BPT, ACME, STUB ACME or API thread data.

No manufacturer specific tool libraries.

 

If MC ever gets Mill/Turn done, Esprit will be toast.

[Dave.L]

quote:

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I've been spending a lot of time with Esprit for the past couple of weeks.

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I've been spending a little, I will be spending a lot more over the next few weeks.

 

quote:

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Generating 2D toolpaths from solids is an exercise of Rube Goldberg proportions.

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I disagree

 

quote:

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It is impossible to extract a single edge curve from a solid.

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I disagree, unless I don't understand what you are sayin

 

quote:

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The Wirefame geometry creation is really bad.

No Trim or Extend like any real CAD package.

---

Maybe true, but for me I have ZERO interest in creating geometry within a CAM package. Esprit directly opens Solidworks files with no need to import, for me that's perfect.

 

quote:

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The Solids have ZERO history so the modeling is all but worthless.

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I am told they have an option for Solids history. Unless you are talking about creating Solids within Esprit, MC does not have history either (from importing a solid, which for me is all I will ever do)

 

quote:

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I despise the fact that the tool library isn't a library at all.

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From what I have experienced, I disagree

 

quote:

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No manufacturer specific tool libraries.

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I have been told Kennametal will be soon partnering with Esprit.

 

quote:

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If MC ever gets Mill/Turn done, Esprit will be toast.

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I don't agree. From my limited use, yes I like some features in MC better, but I like many in Esprit. The graphics BLOW MC out of the water and I don't mean the simulation, just plain old model graphics. In a few weeks I will post more comments.

[Guest SAIPEM]

quote:

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quote: I've been spending a lot of time with Esprit for the past couple of weeks.

 

I've been spending a little, I will be spending a lot more over the next few weeks.

 

quote:

Generating 2D toolpaths from solids is an exercise of Rube Goldberg proportions.

 

I disagree

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It sure is compared to Mastercam.

The fact that you have to essentially recreate geometry for a drill op is ridiculous.

It takes twice as many steps to get a 2D toolpath created from a solid than it does with Mastercam.

You have to create a Chain feature where Mastercam just lets you pick the edge geometry and you're done.

 

quote:

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quote:

It is impossible to extract a single edge curve from a solid.

 

I disagree, unless I don't understand what you are sayin

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In Mastercam all you need to do is Create|Curve|Single Edge.

 

In Esprit you have to "Smash" the body and take ALL the edge curves.

 

quote:

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quote:

The Wirefame geometry creation is really bad.

No Trim or Extend like any real CAD package.

 

Maybe true, but for me I have ZERO interest in creating geometry within a CAM package. Esprit directly opens Solidworks files with no need to import, for me that's perfect.

---

That's a very impractical position.

It will always be necessary to create additional geometry for constraints and boundaries.

 

quote:

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quote: The Solids have ZERO history so the modeling is all but worthless.

 

I am told they have an option for Solids history. Unless you are talking about creating Solids within Esprit, MC does not have history either (from importing a solid, which for me is all I will ever do)

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You are dead wrong on this.

If you create a Solid Model in Mastercam, there is an entire feature tree that is fully editable.

Esprit does NOT have this.

 

Furthermore, Mastercam Solids has a limited Feature recognition for imported dumb solids.

 

You can also import a SolidWorks part complete with the feature tree.

While it isn't perfect, it does work fairly well and is still much more robust than Esprit.

Solids in Mastercam are far more useful than Esprit.

 

quote:

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quote:

I despise the fact that the tool library isn't a library at all.

 

From what I have experienced, I disagree

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Ok, Please tell me where I browse to find a CNMG-432 Insert and a MCLNR-16-4 holder?

 

They don't exist.

You have to create them each and every time.

You can export a tool file once it's created but that is NOT the same a having a tool library like Mastercam.

 

quote:

No manufacturer specific tool libraries.

 

I have been told Kennametal will be soon partnering with Esprit.

 

quote:

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quote:

If MC ever gets Mill/Turn done, Esprit will be toast.

 

I don't agree. From my limited use, yes I like some features in MC better, but I like many in Esprit. The graphics BLOW MC out of the water and I don't mean the simulation, just plain old model graphics. In a few weeks I will post more comments.

---

There isn't a single toolpath strategy in Esprit that isn't exceeded by Mastercam.

 

Just look at threadmilling in Esprit.

 

The ONLY advantage Esprit has is that they have a reliable Mill/Turn package that is capable of Synchronization.

 

All I can say is that I feel sorry for anybody who gets Esprit on their new Mori.

All it will do is frustrate them.

[Verndog]

quote:

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I still think it's psycho to have that stuff residing on a Machine Control.

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It doesn't take a good shop owner long to do the math on a $200,000 +++ machine tool sitting while the guy programming goes to see if they have a 1/2 ball 3.0 OOH on hand as opposed to a $15,000 cad system sitting. Not only that...often after the operator learns a little something they develope the greener grass syndrome and want to be a "big bucks" programmer full time.

 

It wont stick IMO...MC will put their 64B code on hold and get posts working to take back whats doing exit stage right as we speak.

 

quote:

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It will always be necessary to create additional geometry for constraints and boundaries.

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I agree, just a matter of how much and how easy is it. As long as there is clamps, tool tabs, bolts, tombstones and other fixture / tooling and components to consider in toolpath, plus forgings, waterjet profiles, and misc. shapes to save material being implemented, there will be a need for addition GEO....period.

[Dave.L]

quote:

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It sure is compared to Mastercam.

The fact that you have to essentially recreate geometry for a drill op is ridiculous.

It takes twice as many steps to get a 2D toolpath created from a solid than it does with Mastercam.

You have to create a Chain feature where Mastercam just lets you pick the edge geometry and you're done.

---

I don't think you understand how it works, you don't need to recreate any geometry.

 

In MC, you select your operation 1st, then select the geometry. In Esprit, you select the features, then apply the toolpath, same thing opposite order.

 

quote:

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In Mastercam all you need to do is Create|Curve|Single Edge.

 

In Esprit you have to "Smash" the body and take ALL the edge curves.

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Why do you need to do this at all, you can simply work from the Solid. I don't do this in MC and I don't plan to need to in Esprit.

 

quote:

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That's a very impractical position.

It will always be necessary to create additional geometry for constraints and boundaries.

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I've done hundreds of programs in MC without the need to create geometry. Maybe 5 parts that I can think of I created geometry, so it's not impractical at all - I am doing it.

 

quote:

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You are dead wrong on this.

If you create a Solid Model in Mastercam, there is an entire feature tree that is fully editable.

Esprit does NOT have this.

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For me, I have Solidworks and with that said, never in a million years would I create a solid in MC. I am told Esprit has an option to bring in the feature tree of other systems, not to edit the solid but to use the features for CAM. In my eyes, this is WAY more valueable than creating a Solid in a CAM package. If it's your only option, sure I understand but I will never have this situation.

 

quote:

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Solids in Mastercam are far more useful than Esprit.

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Too soon for me to be sure, but I don't think so.

 

quote:

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You can export a tool file once it's created but that is NOT the same a having a tool library like Mastercam.

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I have only looked at the mill library and I like it way better than MC since first and formost, it has a Tool ID, the base key id for any database. MC, library in my eyes is a joke.

 

quote:

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It doesn't take a good shop owner long to do the math on a $200,000 +++ machine tool sitting while the guy programming goes to see if they have a 1/2 ball 3.0 OOH on hand as opposed to a $15,000 cad system sitting. Not only that...often after the operator learns a little something they develope the greener grass syndrome and want to be a "big bucks" programmer full time.

---

If you read the reply from Dave @ DMG/Mori, you would have seen that the software can be run on a desk PC and you don't need to stand at the control to do this, yes that would be stupid.

 

BTW, I noticed how you did not comment on the graphics in Esprit compared to MC. Espirt is still not as good as solidworks, but way closer than MC, way closer.

[Verndog]

quote:

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BTW, I noticed how you did not comment on the graphics in Esprit compared to MC. Espirt is still not as good as solidworks, but way closer than MC, way closer.

---

That would be because last time I ran Esprit was about 17 years ago (early 90's).

 

At that time a rectangular shaped deep pocket part with a kicked out floor took 2 days to toolpath in Esprit. I did a projected toolpath pocket to floor surface in around 2 hours and after the supervisor saw the difference that was the end of Esprit.

 

As far as graphics goes, I have no issue with graphics on X3 with a Quadro 580 and win7, and to be honest eye candy is toward the bottom of my priority list...more a bonus feature IMO.

 

I do understand why some are switching, and cant blame them when options are limited. Just dont expect across the board gains, because from what I hear, then only people switching feel forced into it from lack of options created by Mori.

 

I consider this "bundled software" stuff kind of like buying an external hard drive with built in backup software....I re format and use the good stuff.

[Dave.L]

quote:

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That would be because last time I ran Esprit was about 17 years ago (early 90's).

---

Verndog, that was not directed toward you.

 

quote:

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As far as graphics goes, I have no issue with graphics on X3 with a Quadro 580 and win7, and to be honest eye candy is toward the bottom of my priority list...more a bonus feature IMO.

 

I do understand why some are switching, and cant blame them when options are limited. Just dont expect across the board gains, because from what I hear, then only people switching feel forced into it from lack of options created by Mori.

---

I don't want eye candy either, just good graphics. I thought my issue was my prior graphics card and when I upgraded no change in MC, outlined solids still look horrible. I have very high standards since I use SW as the bar, which IMO is the best software I have ever used, nothing is close!

 

As far as Mori, what lack of options? You don't need to use Esprit if it comes with it, they still offer CAPPS. IMO, I don't buy the machine for the programming software, I buy it for it's ability to machine. I am more than happy to generate the code elsewhere.

[Guest SAIPEM]

Dave,

 

I know how Esprit works perfectly.

In Esprit you MUST create the Feature BEFORE you can select it for machining.

 

So you ARE essentially recreating geometry because you are forced to pick it twice.

In Mastercam I pick it once.

 

With all due respect, I think you are clearly ignorant of what Mastercam can do.

You are using Level 1.

If you did any 3D machining you would soon realize why someone would want to create wireframe geometry from a solid edge.

It's needed for containment boundaries for efficient toolpaths.

 

Let's take a look at 3D machining and 5-Axis tool paths. Esprit isn't a real contender in any respect. Creating Tool Vector control is a must and you'll need additional geometry to do it.

 

To claim Esprit is better than Mastercam when comparing to SolidWorks is a statement that makes no sense.

You are comparing Apples to Oranges.

 

The Native Solids features of Esprit aren't even close to Mastercam.

 

The fact that you can't merge files is a deal killer for me.

 

Also, you can't save a tool with an operation.

So saving an operation is all but worthless.

 

In Mastercam I can browse to ANY existing file and import any of the Operations I want complete with the tool.

 

There's a reason Esprit has virtually Zero market share in the US CAM market.

I'm willing to bet Mori abandons this "experiment" of theirs by the end of the year.

[Dave.L]

quote:

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I know how Esprit works perfectly.

In Esprit you MUST create the Feature BEFORE you can select it for machining.

 

So you ARE essentially recreating geometry because you are forced to pick it twice.

In Mastercam I pick it once.

---

That statement illustrates that you don't at all understand how Esprit works.

 

You are not creating geometry. As I already said, in Esprit you select your geometry first and then apply the tool path, so how you view this as creating geometry and selecting geometry twice is beyond me, that not true at all.

 

And for the record, the jury is still out for me. I like plenty of features in MC but I also like what I have seen in Esprit.

 

quote:

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To claim Esprit is better than Mastercam when comparing to SolidWorks is a statement that makes no sense.

You are comparing Apples to Oranges.

---

I am speaking of graphics, intelligent software design and solids, so it makes good sense, far from apples to oranges. In fact, I think you were the one to start the comparison of Solids.

 

quote:

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The Native Solids features of Esprit aren't even close to Mastercam.

---

As I said, I would never create native solids in a cam package. If that's your only option, I understand your position. For me, I will always use a design software or rely on a customer to provide a model from such a system. No system will do it all, design with design software and machine with CAM software.

 

quote:

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Also, you can't save a tool with an operation.

So saving an operation is all but worthless.

---

Well, I am not certain about this, you may be correct, you may not be. Esprit has the ability to save processes - it seems counter intuitive that a tool can't be saved, but I will look into this.

 

quote:

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I'm willing to bet Mori abandons this "experiment" of theirs by the end of the year.

---

That's a bet I am willing to take.

 

For me, workplanes in Esprit is way better than the WCS in MC. Also, such a simple thing like workoffsets in Esprit is just as it should be, G54 for G54 not MC's stupid 0 for 54. Yes, we have since changed our post so that the offsets match, but some of MC's logic is just plain lame. This is one example of many.

 

Again, I am not sayin I think Esprit is better, I still have lots to explore. IMO, it seems more intutive and a better base package but the jury is still out for a while.

 

quote:

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With all due respect, I think you are clearly ignorant of what Mastercam can do.

You are using Level 1.

If you did any 3D machining you would soon realize why someone would want to create wireframe geometry from a solid edge.

It's needed for containment boundaries for efficient toolpaths.

---

I certainly have no experience in 3D machining. But, that does not mean we do not do very detailed, complex 2.5D parts that need to be done very efficiently. So, to assume one cannot judge a system if they don’t do 3-Axis work, is wrong IMO. And, if the software provider can’t get some simple 2D bugs fixed, what does that say about 3D capabilities? So, do I know MC’s 3D capabilities, no I don’t – you are correct. But my business and many others relies on, and makes plenty of revenue doing many 2.5D complex parts.

 

As a side note, it's always hard to evaluate a system when you know another, it's like your first love, it hard for the next to compare. I tend to look at other products with a very open mind.

[gcode]

quote:

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No system will do it all, design with design software and machine with CAM software.

---

Catia

Unigraphics NX7

SolidEdge/Cam Express (I've heard this is world class mill/turn)

CamWorks a SolidWorks addon

HSMWorks a SolidWorks addon

 

and very late to the party

Mastercam for SolidWorks

[Guest SAIPEM]

Dave,

 

As I clearly stated, I know EXACTLY how Esprit works.

 

You ARE essentially recreating geometry when you have to create a Feature before you can machine it.

 

If you don't believe that, fine.

That doesn't change the fact that you pick the data to create the feature then you pick the feature when you machine it.

That's picking the same stuff twice where I come from.

 

When you make an ignorant statement about the capability of MC Solids vs Esprit I know full well there are function that MC has that you don't know even exist!

 

Your conclusion about the MC Mill Tool library again shows ignorance of how the library actually works.

 

As far as WorkPlanes-WCS are concerned, you can name them anything you want. The integer is simply an index that is used as a flag for the post.

If you don't like that, you are free to change the post to use the name as a flag.

 

If you already have SolidWorks and you are only doing 2D parts, why aren't you looking at a system that runs inside SolidWorks?

 

If you like Esprit, good for you.

If I didn't need to do MTM programming, I would NEVER use it.

It is a very inefficient tool for anything else.

The CAM market has already spoken about how it compares to Mastercam.

[gcode]

quote:

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No system will do it all, design with design software and machine with CAM software.

---

forgot one..

 

SolidCam.. another SolidWorks addon

Solidcam is pretty cool.. you can go to thier website and download the full version and tons of tutorials..

The download will do everything but post

 

and one more..

Hypermill.. out of Germany.. very powerful and very expensive..

This one can be purchased as a stand alone or an

addon to Solidworks or Inventor