O/T Where's the good grammers ?

[Jeremiah]

Well I know they are all in this forum, but how come we can't get any to apply for our open programming positions? We have been running adds everywhere, local papers, Seattle area, web sites, MasterCam's site and so on.

 

We started off looking for someone with 5x experience. Not having any luck with this, we decided to go for the 3x and 4x market. While we have had a few applicants in here, they have been painfully slow and bluntly stated, ignorant.

 

I'm not gonna b.s. anyone. We are a fast paced (overstressed) shop that is very demanding. "Put out or get out" is our unspoken policy. Those who put out are rewarded appropriately.

 

If I haven't scared everyone off and if anyone is interested in working in the Portland Oregon area please send me an e-mail or check out our website www.davistl.com

 

Thanks

Jeremiah

 

[ 08-08-2003, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Jeremiah ]

[mayday]

quote:

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they have been painfully slow and bluntly stated, ignorant.

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It's like that all over the country

we in michigan have the same problem even finding good operators is imposible.

[Rekd™]

Agreed, we've been looking for operators, floor sweepers, something. I had one guy explaining his drug habits to me RIGHT AT THE INTERVIEW!! WTF is wrong with people? Years ago I had a guy tell me "I just want to work long enough to get back on un-employment.." I chased his dumb xxxx out of there so fast.

 

Well, Jeremiah, if I had a notion to move back to Oregon, I'd look you up for sure. Unfortunately, my wife is now making more than me, so she gets to wear the pants for a while. I don't do (read haven't done) any 5axis stuff, but I'll r0xers yer b0xers on 3 and 4 axis stuff.

How's the pay? And the cost of living/housing? Been a few years since I've been there. Quite a few.

 

'Rekd teh Raise my taxes ONE MORE TIME and I'm going postal!

[Jeremiah]

Thanks for the sympathy guys. IMHO the pay is great. Most of the programmers here make between 25/30/hr. Houses are cheap, if the Californians quit migrating up here. I understand about the wife makeing more than you, mine is an RN, works half as much as me and makes twice as much while hanging out with the kids on her 4 days off every week.

 

Typcially our HR guy will get the apps and forward them to my boss. My boss decides who might fit the bill and who won't. The potential candidates get a phone screen, then ususally a sit down interview with either myself or my boss. If we think they are a good prospect then we have them sit down at a seat of MasterCam and show us what they can do. I give them a drawing of a very simple part and have them model it then throw some toolpath on it.

 

Does this sound out of the ordinary?

 

Jeremiah

 

[ 08-07-2003, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Jeremiah ]

[crazy^millman]

I did the 5 axis programming and the last place I was with. They thought it would be really cool around christmas last year with me having a family to cut my pay by $24,000 a year. I never been there but Dont think you are going to have much luck finding anyone they had been looking for a year before i went there. I can only tell you good luck in your search!!!!!

 

Crazy Millman

[Scott Bond]

I wouldn't rule anything out, I would go there in a hart beat if i thought we could make all the schools, houses,wifes job,and Olympic BMX work out.

[crazy^millman]

Think you got the right idea on the Mastercam. I know it sucks but have you thought of some greeners right out of school that have some idea of wanting something out of life and just training them. I did that with 5 Guys about 5 years ago and they are all doing really well in the trade now. It took about a year to get them the basics on conventional mills and lathes thne another year and they were doing great on CNC's Dont get me wrong I had my pull the hair out days but it paided off in the long run for the company I was with.

 

Crazy Millman

[Tony]

J,

Around here Nobody wants to move around.

Jobs are scarce with the Economy factor.

Why RISK moving to another shop.

If things didnt work out You couldnt go back

And there are not very many Jobs out there.

[Javi-E]

O/T ,

 

Has anyone come across ID companies looking,

for programmers.

Relocation is not a problem for me ,I'll go where the work is.

If anyone has a thought I appriciate it.

 

 

"The storm is comming--seek shelter"

[bryan314]

Why not find some sharp highschool or college kids and train them? If you're spending months looking for a good programmer and not getting results why not find a smart kid and use those months to make him/her into a good programmer?

 

Bryan

[Brendan P]

quote:

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Why not find some sharp highschool or college kids and train them? If you're spending months looking for a good programmer and not getting results why not find a smart kid and use those months to make him/her into a good programmer?

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IMO,a good programmer starts on the floor.

How do you train a newbie (to the machine world) when to use a 2 flute vs. 4 flute?

How much D.O.C. to take in alum vs steel?

When to use coolant,when to use oil?

Speed / feeds?

Roll tap/spiral tap?

Knowledge of proper fixturing?

The list goes on.....

These are things that every programmer needs to know,and the best place to learn these are out on the floor,not on a chaulk-board.

But I'm not saying that it totally can't be done either.

[crazy^millman]

Have to agree o bucket head on that one nothing like real world experience. The enviroment was job shop so they guys got a lot of different tihngs in laot of different material so they were able to see alot fo different thing verse one doing like 3 or 4 different parts a month then if that new or different thing comes across they would have been able to handle it as well.

 

I have seen both sides of the coin see people who tried doing cam programming with no machining background at all and get it done. They made there share of mistakes but they were people who could learn from thier mistakes and take it on the chin alot out there can't.

 

I think Buckethead spelled out was I was implying.

 

Crazy Millman

[bryan314]

Ok. OK. Stick them on the floor first then move them to programming. What I was trying to say if your not finding hireable canidates why not take some kid under your wing(s) and give him a chance at a career.

 

Bryan

[cadcam]

quote:

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Where's the good grammers ?

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Right here answering all the questions

 

Hey Can I come up for a few weeks and Play?I am starting to understand this Mastercam stuff a little now. but I have one question first ,can you guys tell me what a bull endmill is?

 

Is this an endmill with horns?

[TheePres]

Just a thought for Jeremiah...Is it possible your HR department is disqualifyng some,

"over-qualified" people before they get to you.

[Rekd™]

+1 Bucket

 

+1 Jay

 

quote:

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use those months to make him/her into a good programmer?

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Not likely. Even if you take a guy/gal off the floor, it's going to be more like years before you can get dependable 4/5 axis programming from them.

 

'Rekd teh If it were easy, everyone would be doing it

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

I believe the really good ones are either in good companies or are a bit gun shy about making a move.

 

There are open positions out there though. I hear about them often and the deal is they either want a top notch ace but only want to pay for a mediocre guy (and I use that term loosely - Hi Kathy ) or they are a company with a bunch of micro managers that don't want to let a guy do his job. They want to stand over them and always want to know "Are you done yet", 5 minutes after you got the new hot part of the hour. I'll tell you what, if there's any owners in here trolling around I've got a message for you, you do your job(s) and we'll do ours, we don't need you hovering over us like a chicken tending to her eggs. Don't be such a control freak, you've got enough to worry about. If we were not competent why'd you hire us in the first place?

 

Currently I work for about the best company you could ever ask to work for. There's 6 of us programmers, we work together as a team. Our boss gives us a(some) project(s), gives us a timeline and that's it. He walks away. We do our jobs and he does his. He may ask for the status periodically if something is especially hot, or check to see if we need anything/anyone, etc... The pay is pretty good, the benefits are outstanding, the perks are unreal. The perks are so good in fact that I'll not discuss them publicly.

 

So if you want good programmers you're going to have to offer a good situation not just god pay. That's the bottom line.

 

JM2C

 

[ 08-08-2003, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: James Meyette ]

[Jeremiah]

Thanks all for your comments.

 

I would love to take a newbie under my wing and show him/her the ropes, but it isn't that easy. Where are the newbie kids? It's almost like ma and pa are telling their kids not to go into manufacturing anymore. I haven't seen any ambition coming thru the door in quite some time. There are a few guys on the floor that are showing some intrest in learning to program, so I will be teaching a class after hours for the next 2 months.

 

There is alot more to offer here than just pay. I mean come on, we get donuts every Friday and and if you work Saturday you get them then too. Actually I have been here for almost ten years and wouldn't move for anything. While there are always gonna be managers, the only limit around here is your own. You can make it a great place, or grit your teeth everytime you walk thru the door, your choice.

 

Jeremiah

[Brendan P]

+1 On that James.

quote:

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You can make it a great place, or grit your teeth everytime you walk thru the door, your choice.

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I totally agree with this,it is all of what you make it.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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There are a few guys on the floor that are showing some intrest in learning to program, so I will be teaching a class after hours for the next 2 months.

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WOW!!!! Very cool. I'd do the same thing for my company in a heartbeat. In a heartbeat. A lot of what goes on in a company is what you make of it, but environment is still key. Is the environment that "We're going to water everybody so they grow and blossom or are we just going to hose people?"

[Jeremiah]

I get what your saying James and have been thinking of how to say this without being too rude. Basically if you are worth watering, you'll get watered. If you have a xxxx poor attitude and come in to get your check and thats it, thats all your gonna get.

 

Jeremiah

[robk]

quote:

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Basically if you are worth watering, you'll get watered. If you have a xxxx poor attitude and come in to get your check and thats it, thats all your gonna get.

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That is Perfect!!! I'm in the process of training 3 employees right now. Right away I could tell that only one has potential... Some people just don't get it.

[Roger Peterson]

Having a posative attitude is key. But I have to beleive that somewhere along the line everyone has been in a situation where it has been difficult. You can only look at working (insert outrageous # here) many saturdays and/or Sundays in a row as an opportunity to help the company and show your worth, if you know what I mean. There are good managers/owners out there that understand that different people work differently. Some people need more attention and direction than others. I have been fortunate but I have also seen people have serious problems with managers that I worked very well with. I guess it goes back to attitude, understanding what your role is within the company, and once the whistle blows everyone is just as important as next guy or the owner(or your manager who just happens to be the owners nephew...) to their family.

[Dan_AKA_ROY]

I am a newbie, so to speak. I have 7 years 2D CAD and machining experience. Our company purchased Mastercam Mill Level3 with Solids 13 months ago.

 

I've been running MC all day, all the time at work. I have a design seat I work on at home. I practice programming toolpaths on my Mill9Demo at home.

 

I have yet to not figure out how to design or machine a part. They request a mold for a particular part and consider it done.

 

I took an electro-mechanical system [gears, pulleys, AC sync. motors, Delay-On Timers, Snap-Action switches, etc.,etc.] and developed it from its infancy and got it running perfectly. I got the product UL-listed and made a variety of different sizes and types. I have an electronics background and consider myself an electro-mechanical engineer, though I didn't finish engineering school. Long story, but I got straight A's when I was enrolled. I did get an associate's degree in electronics.

 

Whenever the maintenance dept. requests a part to design and machine, I take pride that I can design it to spec, machine it, and see their smiles of gratitude.

 

Jeremiah, I wouldn't qualify for your company's programming position because I've been running Mastercam for a little over one year. They want 3 years exp., oh well.

 

I'm happy where I'm at, for now. The pay isn't the greatest but its fun working where I'm at. I'm developing my skills more each day, what else can I ask for?

 

My strongest asset is my strong mathematics background. This has helped me in my transition to the CNC industry. Who knows - maybe in 2 years when I have 3 years of MC under my belt, I'll try hooking up with you guys. I am fasinated with the Aerospace industry. I saw that your company has an Aerospace division. Wow, that would be a dream come true!

 

One other thing: I read where 5 axis programmers are in hot demand. I have In House Solution's 5 axis book I'm reading. Just got started on it, but I think I'll accelerate my efforts in that area. I've read and completed all the exercises on every other MC book I could get my hands on. Too bad we don't have a 5 axis machine - they were talking of purchasing one before the economy took a dump.

[bryan314]

quote:

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Not likely. Even if you take a guy/gal off the floor, it's going to be more like years before you can get dependable 4/5 axis programming from them.

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No wonder there's no good help, if your sticking them right off the floor on 4/5 axis programming. They probably run out the door screaming. That or curled up in a ball in the corner.

 

quote:

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Where are the newbie kids?

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Go to your local high screwl and throw a rock. If he ducks you got a winner.

Seriously, every collage has a job placement office. Also I'm making a big assumption that you're already hiring high school kids as 'cleaning kids' and the promising (and of legal age to run machines) ones are asked to stay and learn the trade.

 

quote:

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It's almost like ma and pa are telling their kids not to go into manufacturing anymore.

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They're not. This is one thing that pushes my buttons. I remember way back in elementary (yes elementary) school adults putting all the emphasis on 'college.' There are many kids who don't want to and shouldn't go to college just because someone told them they need to be a CPA, doctor, lawyer, etc.. our industries have probably lost a lot of excellent talent because of this. School should put equal emphasis on both. There are other choices than becoming a doctor.

 

quote:

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I am a newbie, so to speak.

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Aren't we all? I learn something every day.

 

Seriously though, I hope you find someone soon.

 

Bryan