Haas vs Makino

[Bob W.]

The Makino is an absolute workhorse and tens times ( exaggeration ) more accurate than the HAAS.

 

That is not really an exaggeration. The accuracy and repeatability of the Makino according to the factory inspection report is .0005mm (.00002") and .0003mm (.00002") respectively. For my Haas those values are listed as .0002" and .0001" respectively, making the Makino ten times more accurate and five times more repeatable :-)

[Redfire427]

I can attest that HAAS's claims of accuracy, are highly inaccurate.

[GnoGueyJose]

What the Haas proponents that have never used or run higher end equipment don't understand is there is a reason Kitamura, Matsuura, Makino, and Yasda cost so much. They are worth it! Precision, accuracy, repeatability, and horsepower only tell part of the story. I guess you have to own one to get it.

[Chris Rizzo]

Hey Bob, (and everyone else for that matter)

 

Do you get this local guys emails? This big machine has some impressive numbers, and he's had it listed for a while I'll bet someone could steal it.

[GnoGueyJose]

HSK... Going to have to find an HSK shop for that to go into. Deep taper shops don't like to venture into that. Looks like a ood machine. 3k hours. Why they getting rid of it?

[Chris Rizzo]

No idea why or where it came from.

 

That outfit is a machine tool dealer and I'm on the mailing list. 20k spindle with 2000ipm feedrates caught my eye. (and all the makino chit-chat around here)

[mkd]

retest at 8000 rpm

you will get different results.

Do you really think it will change the outcome? How about if I test both machines at 8000 rpm. I will test the Makino at a spindle load of 100%. Do you think the Haas will be able to make that cut? Are you willing to wager?

wager??? yep.

the Makino is hands down a better machine. no argument there.

$100 bucks says the Haas will do it. the spindle loads spike on the Haas when entering cut, so you will need to take off that silly alarm setting that is showing an unfair fight to be even more unfair..(40hp peak makino vs 30Hp peak Haas)

my guess from experience is that 100%load on the Haas is only about 60% of the actual rated PEAK Hp. i run them up to 180% regularly.

i know i'm a Haas fanboy, but, still, thanks for posting the demo. maybe Haas will start offering a more robust package.

[mkd]

Hey Bob, (and everyone else for that matter)

 

Do you get this local guys emails? This big machine has some impressive numbers, and he's had it listed for a while I'll bet someone could steal it.

i wouldn't know what to do with a 72Hp mill!!!!!!!!!

thing must be over $1/4 million used

[Bob W.]

Hey Bob, (and everyone else for that matter)

 

Do you get this local guys emails? This big machine has some impressive numbers, and he's had it listed for a while I'll bet someone could steal it.

 

Sheesh, I don't know where I would put it and I'm sure I don't have enough power in my building to run it. Thanks for the link though, always fun to look at that stuff.

[Bob W.]

so you will need to take off that silly alarm setting that is showing an unfair fight to be even more unfair.

 

I'm just not willing to do that. I just sank $8k into a new vector drive and spindle motor on this machine and the last thing I want to do is have the pull stud break and need a new spindle. I will take your word for it though. For reference, I did run the Haas with the same parameters at a .25" depth cut and the spindle load showed 90%. I have seen tool holders chatter in the Haas spindle at pretty light cuts and that is what I am trying to avoid. The chatter occurred with a 1.25" indexable end mill running at 10k rpm, 1/2" depth cut, 120 ipm, and 30% stepover. Scared the crap out of me and I don't want to see it again. For reference, the Makino runs the same cutter at .6" depth cut and 50% stepover, which in the end is 4X MRR of what the Haas was able to do without the holder chattering in the spindle. The gage length of this cutter is 4.7". BTW, the Haas only has 3k feed hours and it needed all of this work...

 

The bottom line is whatever the Haas can do the Makino will do a whole lot faster. For me, the faster I can get a job done the higher the rate I am working at. Like in the earlier example, the ability to get one more part done per day gives me $200 more per day which is $1000 more per week, $4k per month, $48k per year. The extra $45k for the Makino doesn't look too bad when you look at it that way. The payment difference for a financed Makino vs a financed Haas is $50 per (working) day.

 

I have another job coming up where I plan to make another comparison. This job will be programmed for the Makino and we'll see if the Haas can keep up. It involves a light facing cut, then some high speed roughing with a 1/2" end mill, then a cleanup pass with a 3/4" end mill. I will be sure to get some good video footage. These are real world jobs I am doing this with, I am not sitting around dreaming of ways to make the Haas look bad...

[mkd]

For reference, I did run the Haas with the same parameters at a .25" depth cut and the spindle load showed 90%.

oh,maybe i'll retract that $100 bet

 

agreed, the tool retention in the Haas is not the best either.

 

there was another similar thread on eMC comparing parts run between the two in a production setting. accelerations were such that productivity more than made up for the increased payment on the Makino.

i wish i could afford one!

for me, doing tooling and prototypes, the weak link is not my Haas, its me. so i'd rather have the $40 k in the bank.

 

 

The chatter occurred with a 1.25" indexable end mill running at 10k rpm, 1/2" depth cut, 120 ipm, and 30% stepover.

pretty aggressive for a Haas. i wouldn't expect to have success either.

[Bob W.]

for me, doing tooling and prototypes, the weak link is not my Haas, its me. so i'd rather have the $40 k in the bank.

 

I was in your shoes a few years back. I had limited shop space and work coming out my ears. My shop is 1200 square feet and it sits 50' from my house in the Oregon countryside. I had two options, get a larger commercial location and take on a lease, or utilize the space I have more efficiently which meant getting more capable machines. In the end, the less expensive route was to stay where I am, replace my Haas VF2SS with a Makino A51nx, replace my TR160 trunnion with a Koma rotary table, and replace my VM3 with a Makino PS95. Me and my one employee can get a staggering amount of work out the door with minimal monthly overhead. Getting a commercial building, more Haas machines, and more employees to run them would have cost several times over my current arrangement. I also had my Haas puke at the worst possible time and that was the final straw.

 

It really made me angry once I started running the A51 because I could see just how bad the Haas was in comparison. I wish Haas had a higher end alternative or put more emphasis on quality. With all this said however, I would not be in business if there wasn't an affordable machine like Haas or Fadal. As your business grows, investing in more capable equipment will reward you handsomely if you have the work to keep it busy.

[MotorCityMinion]

"These are real world jobs I am doing this with, I am not sitting around dreaming of ways to make the Haas look bad..."

Your efforts here speak otherwise.

 

"This job will be programmed for the Makino and we'll see if the Haas can keep up."

Of course the Haas can't keep up. What's the point? You have a new machine your amazed with and proud of. I get it.

 

From the picture it looks like you just wasted about .50 x 1.00 x 18.00" worth of material in under 30 seconds. Real world: Multiply that by the number of parts per day, per week, per month, and you could have purchased the right size material to begin with. Start with the right sized material and the Haas becomes an economical and competitive alternative. All that's really taking place here, intentional or not, is that your bashing one of the few remaining American made machine tool manufactures, that actually has a presence in what's left of our trade schools. With a price spread like that, the comparison is apples to oranges.

 

I use a Haas VF series, Super VF, Mini Mill and a Makino S56 at my place of work and my preferences are as follows. Ease of use, quick setups, training the new guy and general tom foolery, the Haas wins hands down. High accuracy machining, high RPM's, and rigidity, and reliability, our 250K Makino wins. The Makino is expensive for general purpose use in a piece work Job shop. But she does hard mill nice and I can eliminate EDM and grinding options. That's where she shines. Problems with the Makino? You bet!. HSK holder shanks, tool magazine and the spindle need to be constantly cleaned. The laser pre-setter never worked right. The index unit is a sham and takes up way too much space on the table. 3 more Haas machines for the same price of this single Makino would have easily out produced this in our environment .The Makino is better built. Every Haas in the building has different issues with it. The Makino rarely need maintenance.The PS95 has caught my eye with it's pricing and list of standard features and is no doubt the superior machine.

 

" I also had my Haas puke at the worst possible time and that was the final straw. "

 

I do feel your pain.

[mkd]

:unworthy:

sorry to be a post wh0r3 in your thread, but...

man you're living the dream! i wish to have a shop on my own property too! cant touch property out here that could house it, so i got a commercial space costing me a mustang GT payment, off the top every month.

 

i want to upgrade to a 5axis trunnion capability but the Haas' are kind of a joke. what would a Koma cost?

[GnoGueyJose]

Haas = HorsePOSER

Makino = HorsePOWER

 

I don't care what the brochure says, 30HP Makino > 30HP Haas without question.

[Bob W.]

"These are real world jobs I am doing this with, I am not sitting around dreaming of ways to make the Haas look bad..."

Your efforts here speak otherwise.

 

Yeah, I see your point. My effort is to show people that only have experience running Haas or Fadal machines exactly what the difference is. Show me one video or give me one link that does this with concrete footage and not just opinion. I bought three Haas machines before stepping up to a Makino. If I had access to videos or information showing exactly what I would be getting it might have only been two. All of the information out there is opinion and subjective. I run a small shop and I am self taught. I have never worked in ANY machine shop other than my own and when I received my Haas I had to call tech support to figure out how to load a program into the machine. I believe there are folks out there that will benefit from these videos.

 

"This job will be programmed for the Makino and we'll see if the Haas can keep up."

Of course the Haas can't keep up. What's the point? You have a new machine your amazed with and proud of. I get it.

 

I was proud and amazed with the A51 horizontal machine. With the PS95 I got exactly what I was expecting, I can't say that I am overly amazed, just satisfied. When I received my VM3 it had so many issues I almost sent it back. Misaligned ball screws, bad power failure detection module, bad spindle, etc... These were all fixed and replaced under warranty but at a cost of three weeks up time which came out of my pocket... The point is to show folks that there is value in investing in higher quality machines. When I made my three Haas purchases I honestly doubted that a machine could be that much better to justify the price because I had never run anything else. These videos are not directed at folks like yourself that have been around the block because you already know all of this.

 

From the picture it looks like you just wasted about .50 x 1.00 x 18.00" worth of material in under 30 seconds. Real world: Multiply that by the number of parts per day, per week, per month, and you could have purchased the right size material to begin with. Start with the right sized material and the Haas becomes an economical and competitive alternative.

 

There was a design change that my customer sent after the material was delivered. For 12 pieces it wasn't worth the effort to return it for thinner stock.

 

All that's really taking place here, intentional or not, is that your bashing one of the few remaining American made machine tool manufactures, that actually has a presence in what's left of our trade schools. With a price spread like that, the comparison is apples to oranges.

 

Yes, the Haas is taking a beating here. I am frustrated and embarrassed that the US doesn't offer anything better. We used to be the best manufacturing country in the world and not all we can show for out machine tool industry is Haas and Fadal, for the most part. I'd love to see them take a bit of pride in what they put out there and show a little innovation instead of chasing every last nickel and delivering crap. On the three Haas machines I owned I had no less than 40 service calls and not one was due to a mistake or crash on my part. All three machines were bought new.

 

I like to buy American as much as the next guy, but my business has to be earned and my experience with Haas has made me feel like a major sucker. Would you say the VF2SS is a true high speed machine? I believed it and bought one. Would you say the VM3 is a true mold machine? I believed it and bought one of these too and I am not happy about it. Their marketing department is making suckers of unsuspecting machine shops that believe their hype. I do still own one Haas and my goal is to help others in the market make a more informed decision instead of just looking at $$$ and getting sticker shock.

[mkd]

assembled in america... :laughing:

the impotent stuff is made in japan. motors and screws.

the controls are made here. unfortunately the buggiest part.

hard to say for this Haas fan

[Bob W.]

assembled in america... :laughing:

the impotent stuff is made in japan. motors and screws.

the controls are made here. unfortunately the buggiest part.

hard to say for this Haas fan

 

Well my VF2SS and VM3 both had spindle motors made or designed by Haas (according to service techs) in their attempt to reduce costs. Both failed within three years and neither were covered under warranty. Apparently Haas had so many issues that they gave up on this endeavor and went back to Japanese motors (Yasakawa?). These run and sound much better but at a cost to me of $8k.

[Rotary Ninja]

I feel ya Bob. You sound like you have had some bad experience with Haas. So I don't blame you. But unlike you I have ran a lot of other machines. I have ran mills with up to 100 feet of travel. I have ran Okuma, Mori-Seiki, Cincinatti, and Mazak just to name a few. These are all better than the Haas, and more expensive. Mazak is getting competitive, but not the best of this group by far. I think MCM is right though. You aren't giving the Haas a fair test. I have cut some of the hardest chit on the planet. Iconel, Waspalloy, Hastelloy, Rene 41, Titanium, and even Tungsten. I've made enough chips out of 718 Inco to leave a trail around the planet a few times. I have made parts for the Aerospace, Medical, and Automotive industries. I have made hundreds of parts to ridiculous military standards and specifications. And I have done a lot of this work on numerous Haas machines. They can be accurate machines. I don't know why people on here keep saying they aren't. You have had some bad apples. Because I have seen these Haas machines pay for themselves time and time again. But yes, there are better machines out there.

[Robert Ouellette]

im with ninja on this. yes there are better faster stonger machines than haas. but they do have there place and they do fill it very nicely. i have a vm-6 and it is 2 yrs old now. we have had service here 4 times now for it. 1 was a software upgrade, 1 was a way cover i crinkled because i did not see a 123 block that feel off the table, and 3 was a reamer that welded in ss part and pulled out of spindle and then rapided to next hole and then into next hole. cost us a spindle. they only time we had to call service for a fault in the machine was for a loose power wire to the spindle. i caused a over heat alarm. yes i have seen haas repair guys fixing alot of machines in my time but they are much better now then they were years ago. i used to work in an all matsuura shop in ottawa area and we had the service guy in alot more then i see the haas guy now.there are lemons in every machine brand just like in every car brand. just because you but i bmw does not mean you will not get a lemon. just ask my dad. but they are less likely.

[yorx57]

According to a quick check online - this seems to be a greatly UNFAIR test. According to HAAS on their VM-3 series (http://www.haascnc.com/mt_spec1.asp?id=VM-3&webID=MOLD_MACHINE_VMC) the machine is rated as 30 HP with a max. torque of 90 ft-lbs.

 

According to Makino on their PS95 series (http://www.makino.com/vertical-machining-centers/ps95/) the machine is rated as 33.5 HP with a max. torque of 140 ft-lbs. With the HAAS only having approx. 64% of the torque and 3.5 less HP as the PS95 this definitely does not appear to be an apples to apples comparison.

[RaiderX]

Thanks for sharing Bob. real world test like that speak much louder than words. on the other hand I approach parts very differently on the Haas machines than the higher end machines. for example I never take more than .100 depth cuts with 2.0 face mill, yes cycle time suffers but my spindles last more than 3 years and my customer does not want to hear that I am late on a job because I lost a spindle. Haas spindles are a little fragile on side torque. that being said I crank rpms and feeds to max which takes a little sting out of the cycle time. still cant compete with the upper end machines but gets the job done.

 

thanks again for sharing, am anxious for more.

[Newbeeee™]

According to a quick check online - this seems to be a greatly UNFAIR test. According to HAAS on their VM-3 series (http://www.haascnc.c...OLD_MACHINE_VMC) the machine is rated as 30 HP with a max. torque of 90 ft-lbs.

 

According to Makino on their PS95 series (http://www.makino.co...g-centers/ps95/) the machine is rated as 33.5 HP with a max. torque of 140 ft-lbs. With the HAAS only having approx. 64% of the torque and 3.5 less HP as the PS95 this definitely does not appear to be an apples to apples comparison.

Yeh, I suppose torque is king. When talking engines everyone always talks in hp, but torque is where it's at.

[GnoGueyJose]

Yeh, I suppose torque is king. When talking engines everyone always talks in hp, but torque is where it's at.

That's why a diesel can have a paltry 350 HP yet can pull a fully loaded 53' trailer while a 500HP gas engine isn't even in the discussion.

[mkd]

well ,the gear box optioned Hass' max out at 250 ft lbs for the 40taper, so if you really want to run this test at 3000 rpm you're still out of luck 'cause they max out at around 2000 i think.

 

50 Taper Haas, is another story; 2" x 2" cut in steel (under 10 ipm, but still....)