Ok Cnc Software Geeks: Mach Sim Lathe needs

[Colin Gilchrist]

I work for a company with thousands of NX seats and I can tell you that customize that stuff is as hard as a diamond... Lots of people pulling their hair out with that... To simulate specific cycles from machines, you have to have a C developer in-house fully trained in NX API for ISV, or then pay a bunch of money for experts customize it for you. What VERICUT or NCSIMUL can simulate out-of-the-box, they require customization (Very complex ones).

 

I don't see it as a competing product, even though some Siemens dealers unethically advertise it as so for people signing the checks...

 

Try to measure a model or make a comparison like you do in Auto-Diff - They can't. They use tesselated data that is useless for measurements.

 

VERICUT uses an internal B-Rep cut database for each primitive shape it cuts. Unless you are doing surfacing or multiaxis stuff, all other things are primitives.

 

A plane is a plane, a hole is a cylinder, a slot milled with a bull mill is a swept profile made by a cylinder/torus... this makes VERICUT more accurate than its competitors.

 

That's also the reason why NCSIMUL is faster than VERICUT. They use tesselated data and are more OpenGL based. VERICUT is still relying heavily on the Z-buffer technique to represent graphics and material removal.

 

Let alone the fact that VERICUT and NCSIMUL are MUCH richer in macros covering the features of modern controls. NX ISV development team can't follow the pace of companies like CGTech or SpringPLM in pairing with the latest features in machine tools simply because it's not their core business, nor will be. They are trained to tell you: "We can customize it for you with our C API ($$$$$$)"

 

People with complex machines like us have a lot of suffering with NX ISV. They are excellent for 2x, 3x, 3+2 and even 5 axis milling. Now put all this together in a MillTurn in the Oil&Gas business with a U-Axis unit or even HBMs with facing heads and you will see them on their knees...

 

Be careful with marketing white papers guys... they are very dangerous in this industry... - And I invite you to show me one customer with a complex MTM machine that is fully happy with NX ISV. Ask them to simulate the crankshaft or gear hobbing cycles of your millturns, and if they say yes, send me a screenshot of the contract so I can show to my kids.

 

VERICUT is a VERY WELL documented product and with some basic training you can make miracles inhouse. NCSIMUL is more closed and less documented (As most French products), but it's also a deal.

 

NX ISV = trouble IMHO - I like the idea of what it represents, but for complex machines with special features, it can be a source of pain.

 

Hi Daniel,

 

I think you've got some information here that isn't correct, so I'm going to throw in my two cents on Vericut. Vericut does not use B-Rep geometry in their internal database.

 

I spent 4 years learning how to build machine and control files in Vericut, and attended the Machine and Control building class on 3 separate occasions. From the discussions I had with their developers, I came to the understanding that they represent stock material using a method that is unique in the industry.

 

Vericut creates a model of the stock material by taking a volume (the STL of the part's outside boundary shape for instance), and filling that volume with simple geometric blocks, similar to a cube. The size of the blocks that are being created are a direct representation of your tolerance setting. You can visualize this process somewhat by imagining a balloon being filled with grains of sand. The size of each grain is controlled by your tolerance setting.

 

When a simulation is run, the cutter is moved through the stock model volume, and Boolean comparisons are made between the cutter and the geometric blocks that make up the stock volume. If the cutter touches a block, it is removed from the stock database.

 

When you use Auto-Diff, or you use the measurement features in Vericut, they are using an algorithm to approximate a B-Rep feature, and returning the inspection results. You'll see the same thing if you try and use their IGES functions to create surfaces on the Cut Stock Model. When you first run the utility, it can sometimes take a flat floor for example and create many small surface patches. They do have tools that let you take the model after the initial surface creation, select multiple patch surfaces, and perform a command that is basically "take these surfaces and try to create a single surface from them".

 

I could certainly be wrong about how Vericut manages their internal data structures to represent Stock, but the information I just stated was gleaned from talking with some of the developers at CGTech. If you can find any documentation from CGTech that talks about how they construct their Cut Stock Models, especially if it contradicts my current understanding, I'd love to see it...

[gcode]

Hi gcode,

How do like your new Okuma 5X mill ?

I love the machine.. still struggling with the post .. and still running without Vericut though I expect VC to deliver

next week

[Watcher]

Hi Daniel,

 

I think you've got some information here that isn't correct, so I'm going to throw in my two cents on Vericut. Vericut does not use B-Rep geometry in their internal database.

 

I spent 4 years learning how to build machine and control files in Vericut, and attended the Machine and Control building class on 3 separate occasions. From the discussions I had with their developers, I came to the understanding that they represent stock material using a method that is unique in the industry.

 

Vericut creates a model of the stock material by taking a volume (the STL of the part's outside boundary shape for instance), and filling that volume with simple geometric blocks, similar to a cube. The size of the blocks that are being created are a direct representation of your tolerance setting. You can visualize this process somewhat by imagining a balloon being filled with grains of sand. The size of each grain is controlled by your tolerance setting.

 

When a simulation is run, the cutter is moved through the stock model volume, and Boolean comparisons are made between the cutter and the geometric blocks that make up the stock volume. If the cutter touches a block, it is removed from the stock database.

 

When you use Auto-Diff, or you use the measurement features in Vericut, they are using an algorithm to approximate a B-Rep feature, and returning the inspection results. You'll see the same thing if you try and use their IGES functions to create surfaces on the Cut Stock Model. When you first run the utility, it can sometimes take a flat floor for example and create many small surface patches. They do have tools that let you take the model after the initial surface creation, select multiple patch surfaces, and perform a command that is basically "take these surfaces and try to create a single surface from them".

 

I could certainly be wrong about how Vericut manages their internal data structures to represent Stock, but the information I just stated was gleaned from talking with some of the developers at CGTech. If you can find any documentation from CGTech that talks about how they construct their Cut Stock Models, especially if it contradicts my current understanding, I'd love to see it...

 

Colin,

 

I think you described the way they deal with models more accurately than me. Their cut stock database is not a real "topology" based CAD database like in a CAD system, but they indeed do something different so that they can see some features as primitives and not tesselated data.

 

I'll share some examples:

• In X-Caliper, you can pick the axis of a hole/internal corner machined by a drilling/milling tool. It's an accurate measurement, not approximation. Tesselated data do not allow this.
  
• Also in X-Caliper, you can detect other coplanar features when measuring from planes. Example: the floor of pockets that are in the same Z level, in a big airframe.
  
• You can measure the radius left by a bull mill or by a custom form tool. (As long as you design the custom shape using their internal sketcher)
  
• When you use "Model Export" option for example, it's like you said: You can connect patches of surfaces when the software is unable to recognize the feature automatically, but in most cases, the primitives created by regular tools are detected and simplified automatically. Back in 2004 they were able to have flat surfaces exported as planes (not a collection of coplanar patches) with accurate representation of the boundaries.
  

You can also carry all these geometrical features from one stock state to another. The stock database is mantained when you use a model exported in the vericut cut stock model format or from a IP file. That means the axis of that hole you cut in the 1st setup is still "pickable" when you export the cut stock and flip/reposition it in a later setup. If you do this, for example in Mastercam Verifier and all CAM systems out there, you lose all the topology as the output is triangulated data. (IPW in NX, STL in most of others..)

 

Last but not least, you can export the cut stock a hundred times to be used in other setups. If you do it using the formats I mentioned above, if you are using the exported cut stock number #100 and you go to "Feature/History" in X-Caliper and click in a feature machined by a bull mill in the setup number #1, you will get information about what tool, feedrate, corner radius, and NC program block cut that feature - You can track all history of the geometry in cut stock even though you exported it several times. That makes me think they to have a database with more than only topology being saved in their VCP/IP files.

 

So it's a simplified topology/history database but like you said, unique among the CAV vendors.

 

All in all, I think you did a better job than i did explaining the internals..Thanks!

[tsaladyga]

I still say that there should be some attention to Lathe Sim. We have 15 VTL's with live tooling at our company. To say Lathe Sim isn't needed is just wrong. If anyone works for a company with more than one programmer then they would know there are different levels of skills. Those that know, and those that don't.

Unfortunately the company I work for has a few "newbies" in the programming dept and I can't possibly stand over them all at the same time.

You could argue a lifetime with me about Mill Turn, but unless it's free, then it is just another lame attempt from CNC software to charge their customers for something that should have been done years ago for free. I believe that is what Maintenance fees are for.

Lathe SIm would give those of us who still operate 2 axis turret style lathes some sort of verification. I for one can say we make some pretty complicated parts on our machines that would certainly benefit from Simulation. We are always dealing with travel issues and tool length issues that would be invaluable in a Sim.(Because then we are not wasting machine time looking for tooling, figuring out pad heights, trying to adjust tool lengths, etc.)

As far as collecting data from the Machine Builders, Cnc could always ask their Customers for feedback with reference to machine definitions. We all have books(or most of us) that show the dimensions of our machines. I certainly would not be against helping CNC out by providing details of our equipment.

I have tried to approach my company on the subject of purchasing Vericut, but they said it is too expensive to justify buying it. I agree to an extent. I think if Mastercam can come with Machine Simulation for 3 4 and 5 axis mills, how can it really be that hard to create 2 axis turning Machine Simulation.?

I have been using Mastercam since version 4(yes that is 4 not X4 )

I am and have always been a supporter of Mastercam, however, if there is one thing that really drives me nuts, it's that Cnc seems to come out with new versions all the time, but it seems the same problems are in each new version without ever really getting fixed. I would rather see an X5 for 5 years that gets fixed then an X7 that still doesn't have screen capture, that still crashes, that still doesn't have a full lathe tool library(how do we have insert milling cutters, but not insert drill tools?)

Any ways, that's my rant.

[Watcher]

 

Colin

 

Just for the sake of clarity, I prepared a small video showing you what I said. Notice in this video the speed of the analysis of primitive features. VERICUT simply highlights them on a mouse hover instead of doing any sort of computation to approximate a B-Rep feature. Also notice the accuracy of the results.

 

In this example I used a turned part but what I showed works for both turning and milling as long as the resultant geometry in the cut stock is a primitive. That's the reason I think the current VERICUT versions are doing more than approximations.

 

http://www.screencast.com/t/RBRC7FbefG

 

Of course I may be bloody wrong, but something tells me they are doing this differently than others...

 

Cheers,

 

Daniel

[Colin Gilchrist]

I think they add that "feature" definition as the stock is cut, but they calculate it based on how the feature is machined. I really have no idea what they are doing with the data internally, this is just a guess on my part. But I remember in the early days of V6 when those hole axis and circular measurements were not available, and we, along with other users, were requesting those features. We had issues at Boeing with generating holes on a 5X machine with multiple vector positions, and getting inconsistent measurements because we could only measure "between points", and we had to calculate the center of the hole.

 

Again, these are mostly just guesses on my part. I remember when they added the hole center, and I believe they calculate it based on both the feature being generated, and the Gcode that generated it.

[Watcher]

I think they add that "feature" definition as the stock is cut, but they calculate it based on how the feature is machined.

 

Yes, I think so. So all in all, they have some database and it stores these primitive features as B-Rep topology.

 

CGTech really advanced a lot in this area. Model Export is today a very powerful and decent tool. Before 2008 they were not so robust in this area.

[Watcher]

I think they add that "feature" definition as the stock is cut, but they calculate it based on how the feature is machined. I really have no idea what they are doing with the data internally, this is just a guess on my part. But I remember in the early days of V6 when those hole axis and circular measurements were not available, and we, along with other users, were requesting those features. We had issues at Boeing with generating holes on a 5X machine with multiple vector positions, and getting inconsistent measurements because we could only measure "between points", and we had to calculate the center of the hole.

 

Again, these are mostly just guesses on my part. I remember when they added the hole center, and I believe they calculate it based on both the feature being generated, and the Gcode that generated it.

 

Another remark: I spent some hours yesterday reading the help file carefuly, specially the model export section. The patches you mention, are in fact created for non-coplanar/free form surfaces. For flats in the same level, they are automatically converted to a single planar surface.

 

For instance: If you machine a pocket (with a flat floor) with several tools and the last one is a bull mill just to finish the walls and the bottom radius, the result in model export will be the same as if the pocket was extruded (cut) in you CAD sw and then a fillet was applied to the edges surrounding the floor.

 

If you left for example a scallop in the floor, then the bottom surface will still be represented by the B-Rep topology as a single face, but the scallop geo will be a pike with the radius of your bull mill surrounding it. Just like if you had modeled it in the CAD system.

 

I wish I could share their help file but the law of United States tells me to avoid this if I want to avoid trouble.

[chip]

A tough issue would be to verify model geometry when the finish product has nothing to verify to except curves.... This part has sphere axis to compounded hole axis and the finished product edges are curves! I would take 'constructive criticism with a 'grain of salt'. There are those that 'DO' and those that 'watch' those that 'DO'.

 

1_.MCX-7

[Watcher]

A tough issue would be to verify model geometry when the finish product has nothing to verify to except curves.... This part has sphere axis to compounded hole axis and the finished product edges are curves! I would take 'constructive criticism with a 'grain of salt'. There are those that 'DO' and those that 'watch' those that 'DO'.

 

 

Chip, you are a DOER.

[crazy^millman]

Big thing about Vericut everyone forgets. Great prodcut, but without someone elses posts it is dead in the water. With ICAM we can make the whole thing complete and take full onwership of it from cradel to grave. Vericut needs help from other people to get code then they can start to work. ICAM takes the machine kinetmatics into account to make the code. It then takes that to make the simulation and then the machine's G-code Verfication back to all of that built from the start. Now other cool this is take a company that has 5 different CAM systems. ICAM takes one post and posts code for that machine from the 5 different CAM systems. Verfication all goes back to one post to make the solution as bullet proff as anyone in the industry. With 42 years in the business they know a thing or two about how to make G-Code. Intrested shoot me an emial and I will glad to discuss how it can be a complete solution for you.

[Guest]

Big thing about Vericut everyone forgets. Great prodcut, but without someone elses posts it is dead in the water....

 

[crazy^millman]

Glad I made you laugh pointing out facts.

[Colin Gilchrist]

Big thing about Vericut everyone forgets. Great prodcut, but without someone elses posts it is dead in the water. With ICAM we can make the whole thing complete and take full onwership of it from cradel to grave. Vericut needs help from other people to get code then they can start to work. ICAM takes the machine kinetmatics into account to make the code. It then takes that to make the simulation and then the machine's G-code Verfication back to all of that built from the start. Now other cool this is take a company that has 5 different CAM systems. ICAM takes one post and posts code for that machine from the 5 different CAM systems. Verfication all goes back to one post to make the solution as bullet proff as anyone in the industry. With 42 years in the business they know a thing or two about how to make G-Code. Intrested shoot me an emial and I will glad to discuss how it can be a complete solution for you.

 

How do you simulate Machine Macros with Icam? If I've got an M code that causes machine motion, will Icam simulate that?

 

Does Icam have full control simulation, not just motion? Can you look at, read, and set machine state variables?

 

What does Icam do for simulating an entire tool changing system? For example, in Vericut I can define a "Tool Chain" that keeps track of each individual tool in my tool magazine. For any machine with an umbrella style tool changer, you can setup Vericut to detect collisions between any part of the machine/fixture, and the tools that are hanging down in the tool changer.

 

I'm not trying to knock Icam, I think they have a great product, but I don't think it has anything close to the capabilities of Vericut. I'm biased of course, because I've had some pretty extensive Vericut training and made that software do some incredible things...

[crazy^millman]

Yes, Yes and Yes no problem Macros are easy Colin so not sure why that would be such a hard thing to do like vectors, and handling ROTZ and TCP are not more a contention than M code movement? :old forum head sctrach:

 

The fact ICAM posts can take all the advacned toolpaths and post them perfectly and no do a bunch of winds and unwinds should tickle 100 of Mastercam users. Fact you can take solid body tools and simulate them in a mill turn enviorment should also tickle people. Probing, macros and very complex external items like pick and play robots and such are fully supported.

 

Yes you are knocking ICAM and your lack of knowledge about it is showing through. It is a great product, but you did not address my point. Why did that get over looked? I said Vericut is a great prodcut and did not let my bias for ICAM open my mouth since I sell it get in the way. I made a very vaild point. What does Vericut do for posts? How do they help a customer that needs to get a machine running running? They cannot help here. ICAM can and that is the point you are missing here Colin. I know of 3 different accounts where ICAM did the post so Vericut could finally delivery something to the customer. ICAM can do all Vericut can do and even simulate robot pads coming into contact with a part from the bottom side to support a free form shape. The idea that the machine controls the code and not the CAM is the reality of ICAM. How many times have we seen pretty toolpaths that cannot be run on the machine? Now imagine you make a pretty toolpath in Mastercam. The post understand what the machine can really do and make perfect code for that machine. Guess what it is a reality with ICAM. Edcuate yourself about something before you go off running about what it cannot do. Show me how Vericut can post code. It cannot not it can only simulate code. It can only take what it is given and do something with it. Great things it does again not knocking what it can do. I am saying ICAM does very good things as well. Question is do you want to have everything for from the post, to simulation to control code support from one company or from a bunch of different people?We have over 200 different controls supported and ready to build from. The travel and kinematics of the machine build the post. The avability of the codes the machien is capable of build the post. The way the output needs to be for that control builds the post. It is not the tail wagging the dog, but the machine wagging the code to get the right output. That is where the rubber meets the road. ICAM is a complment to anyone running Mastercam not a reduction. Tools in our toolbox have certain uses and a company with ICAM can take Mastercam to a whole different level. I like the movie Robots. Big Weld has a saying see a need fill a need. ICAM fills a need and does it very well. Vericut again is a great prodcut, but again ask them to make you a post for your DMU 60 Monoblock with a Semiens 640D control that supports Probing and code 800. I will be glad to delivery it off the shelf ready when you find them falling short of that task.

 

Oh yeah Colin FMS systems, Hortzionals and most Verticals do not hang the tools down anymore they go to the side, but yes you can tell it to look for that if you want too old school it.

 

Still resepct you and glad you get to do what you do, but remeber I am out here doing and getting what I need done to earn a living.

[chip]

It looks to me like the CAD guys have decent Simulation Software (i.e. CAMWorks, PROManufacture, Catia) and have for years. I saw CAMWorks simulate their Trunion back in 2005 (FBM too). Verifying the toolpathed model is also important.... (Ron) I don't mean to call you out but, If your stack up is .005 out of your tolerance and your 0.500 degree out on your compound angle, an you have to start twisting your geometry to match what you have in the machine. Your model need to reflect your code to make sure your adjustments aren't 180 off...

 

The poor guys wants a machine simulation...

[crazy^millman]

Chip yes it can simulate the part the extractor handles everything you need for Mastercam even with .001 offset and .01 angle. Pretty slick and dialed in. Off to Bed guys Midnight here in Malaysia.

[Guest MTB Technical Services]

My 2 cents here so take it for what it's worth.

I'll probably get flamed and fragged for this.

So be it.

 

These 3rd party solutions are great.

I've only seen demos of Vericut and ICAM and both are impressive.

 

It's great that these products are available.

 

However, Mastercam really needs to have a bullet-proof solution for its entire product line.

I know that CNC has people working hard on this stuff.

I've seen it first hand.

I don't think that is the issue.

 

What bothers me is the complete lack of any meaningful communication that lets dealers, beta testers, users and customers know where things stand.

CNC has all kinds of social media outlets that spend a great deal of time telling us water is wet and rocks are hard.

Don't get me wrong. These channels do have some good content.

I don't think its asking too much for CNC to be a little more open with the install base and engage in some direct communication with it.

Colin and Aaron do Yeoman's work here assisting countless users but they don't speak for CNC regarding these major issues.

 

Last year there was a promise that CNC would have its own web forum and a redesigned web site.

A year later and still nothing.

Don't promise it and then drop the ball.

It makes you look disconnected and uncaring.

 

I'm a a self-professed MC fan boi.

I like the product, warts and all.

I can make good parts with it.

What I don't like is seeing skilled programmers having so many issues and the deafening silence in response to this.

 

Better communication would go a long way to answering users questions.

They may not like the answer but at least they would have an answer.

 

<rant off>

 

Just one user's humble opinion.

[Watcher]

...ICAM can do all Vericut can do...

 

Hi Ron,

 

I'm sorry buddy, but I have to disagree with you here... :-)

 

There are a few things ICAM can't do and VERICUT can:

1. Program robots (Not only simulate them but program them with their internal PP language for robots)
   
2. Program probe cycles interactively (Something like Renishaw Inspection+ but for all probes, not only Renishaw (Also an internal PP created in VERICUT.
   
3. Optimize toolpaths like Optipath. (No, ICAM latest and greatest SmartPath don't do that - Yet)
   
4. Export the cut stock as a B-Rep model. (VERICUT Model Export)
   
5. Generate the endless reports VERICUT can. (Tooling, SetupSheets, blablabla) - Some stuff is covered by ICAM but far from the power of VERICUT.
   
6. Generate inspection reports (http://www.cgtech.co...ction-sequence/)
   
7. Export the results of the verification to a format that can be read/played by a free viewer. (VERICUT Reviewer - NCSimul invented this BTW)
   
8. Program and simulate AFP / ATL machines (VERICUT VCPe, VCP & VCS)
   
9. Program and simulate drilling & fastening machines (VERICUT VDAF)
   
10. Import Tools from your Zoller Presseter (http://www.cgtech.co...er-partnership/)
    
11. Talk to your TDM / WinTool / FaSys Software
    
12. Import your tooling/fixture/designs reading all these native B-Rep formats: NX prt, CATIA and STEP. (http://www.cgtech.co...a/lg/step-tool/)
    

Of course we have the thing with the PP in ICAM, but VERICUT was never supposed to fill this gap. Quite often the reason a shop does not have a PP for a machine like the DMU you mentioned is because the guys didn't do their homework, as I wrote here: http://camzone.org/2...now-about-them/

 

It's not VERICUT's fault or a gap it does not fill. Each product fits to a certain range of functionality. Based in my experience and the machines I deal with, ICAM would not suffice to deliver us all VERICUT does. So we prefer to work on the post as hard as we do with VERICUT and get the best of both worlds.

 

With all due respect, I might be wrong about a few points I mention above as I don't have contact with ICAM since 2007 - But we are not comparing apples to apples here.

 

(Almost worked for ICAM in that period - My father asked me to stay in Brazil as my first son was 2 years old back then and he is his 1st grandson. I had signed the contract already and was moving to Montreal)

 

Not saying which one is better because it really depends on what a company wants from both. But the only replacement I'd consider for VERICUT today in my company would be NCSimul. And I said, consider.

[crazy^millman]

Wow pulling in the big dogs to keep me from earning a living. I again will repeat. I did not say Vericut was a bad prodcut not once have I said it was. Again what do you want from a prodcut? You would be surpised how much has been done to a software Daniel in 6 years so might want to revisit certain things. I did not want this to turn into a debate I wanted to offer a different soultion to someone looking for something that will help him get the job he wants done done. ICAM can accomplish the task he is after. That was the question posted. Vericut again is a great prodcut, but ICAM is also a great prodcut and if you want to have the ability to control your own densinty with PP, Verifcation and Control emulation then ICAM is a great choice. I am always willing take challages and Mastercam is also not the software you choose to program in, yet I can accomplish everything you can with other software at a great reduction in the cost of the software. Sorry most companies do not have 1000's of NX seats to play with they have one or two seats of Mastercam and run their companies very well doing so. Oh yeah Daniel the folks at CNC Software do care and do listen to their customers. Guess what making software aint easy and when you slam people trying to earn a living because you can sorry need to rethink that. ICAM can help them do things differently and respect things with regards to the machine from PP standpoint Vericut cannot. So no they choose not to fill that gap, ICAM did and does a very good job doing so. Things always change in software my friend and a customer with Mastercam using a PP from ICAM can also post from NX, Catia, Gibb, and many other CAM softwares using one post. Again a gap Vericut does not fill or can help a customer accomplish without help from someone else.

 

How many companies have Zoller Presetters sitting around? 25-40%

How many companies use TDM Software? 20-30%

How many companeis use WinTool Software? 10-30%

Yes you can bring Step models into the software. With Mastercam you can set your levels as many as you want to pull everything for simlation.

 

Give me worldwide percentages of machine shops, manufcatruing companies that have these? I like what it can do and what it offers. It is what it is and you get what you pay for without having to worry are you getting what you need to get the job done.

 

AGAIN VERICUT IS A GOOD PRODCUT.

 

ICAM IS A GOOD PRODCUT AS WELL.

 

Not saying which one is better because it really depends on what a company wants from both.

 

With all due respect just like Colin, you have one sided your opinion.

[Watcher]

...

 

 

Hey Ron,

 

I did not say ICAM was bad product. I just said that it's not accurate to say ICAM can do all VERICUT can. And I showed you the facts (Not only 3) so you can see I was not being passionate. I did stick with the facts.

 

If you hear me saying VERICUT can do everything ICAM can, then I WILL expect you to point all facts showing me I was not being accurate.

Honestly, I did not feel bugged just because you said ICAM can do things VERICUT can't. That's ABSOLUTELY true. I just raised my hand to mention certain things ICAM can't do.

 

So if you feel what I commented above is wrong or inaccurate, feel free to let me know.

 

All I ask you is to not let my opinions here and in my blog to hurt our relationship, as long as they do not target you. I'm sure that for me, no software in the world is more important than Ron Branch. Mastercam, VERICUT, ICAM and whatever tool out there is not worth a discussion between you and me. If I offended you somehow, I sincerely apologize. You are above many on my list Ron.

 

Your friend,

 

Daniel

[Watcher]

Guess what making software aint easy and when you slam people trying to earn a living because you can sorry need to rethink that.

 

Well, let's discuss this point further because I heard this before so I want to dispense my humble opinion on this one:

 

Making software is not easy. You are right. But apparently there are a lot of people doing it better than CNC.

 

So maybe you should rethink that too, because people paying maintenance from their own pocket and working as beta testers for free on the dinner table to end up with defective software does not sound a good deal for anybody. And you and me know that there are a few guys here on this place on this condition.

 

I wonder what you would say if Mastercam was your brand new car and you had all these problems, if you would turn to the salesman and say "Yes, making good and safe cars is a hard job... even though we're in America..."

 

Again, I'm sorry if my last post offended you somehow, because it was not targeting people like you. My post was clearly targeting CNC management, and not its hard working employees trying to earn a living. So no regrets here for writing that because I left this very clear in that article.

 

Sincerely,

 

Daniel

[crazy^millman]

Daniel, if I said ICAM can do everything Vericut can then I aplogize I was saying it can do everything Vericut can. Mastercam is not NX has never made that claim that I am aware of. I make a very good living using Mastercam and it amazes me how much a buy people give Microsoft for the crap they keep putting out for OS. Yes people buy iy. Mastercam is not the end all, but it does allow people to do their job. Yes Beta testers do offer their services for free like I have for over a decade and still do. So I am not sure where I d onot fall into someone who has complained and shared his frsutration about things I want addressed. Thing is at the end of the day the folks at CNC Software are people trying to earn a living just like you and me. I did not understand the process until I went ot work for a software company. You have to support 8 different OS systems. 12 different old version plus try develope 3 more things ahead. Dela with people ripping off your software, then people ranting about how much they do not care when you they have never presonally talked to anyone they are slamming. I have got to know the people at CNC in my dealing in the last 5 years. They care and they want the best prodcut. The internet is a powerful thing people forget about and this forum has Jonn loving more things for his Jihad against people trying to earn a living. At the end of the day Daniel they are people just like you and me. The ownership at CNC takes great pride in doing the best job they can do. I am the first to say their are things that can be better. Tell all the machien tool builders to use one language, one structure for making machines. Tell all the tool Vendors to make all the tools the same and all the material vendors to make the same material. all Fixture builders and everythings else a CAM system has to account for the same and guess what CNC Software, NX and every other CAM maker will be that much better off until then. Everyone is doing their best too do the best job possible. People care and people share your concern. I am one of them. ICAM is not Vericut and Vericut is not ICAM. You have great facts thank you for sharing them. Fact is I am a non degreed person earning a very good living using Mastercam Software as my programming software. I have programmed what I think are some very diffcult parts. Having a way to make my code be what I want for my machine is one part of the equation. Having the ability to see it away from the machine is another part of the eqaution. Each part of the puzzle is up to those with the ability to solve. Thankfully you have a huge company that has tons of resources to spend. A lot of companies do not have that and need afforable solutions that get the job done. ICAM is one of those soltuions like Mastercam. Vericut and many other things are also solutions and all I was doing was pointing out one fact that Vericut does not do PP. How I said it can do everything Vericut can I am not sure when or how I did was not my entention it was to say if you have a need for a PP and want a different solution ICAM can fill that. You would like Simulaton tied back to that same PP and Control Emulation it can do that. I was not reffering it to mean it is 100% everything Vericut is, but to say it is completely sub par with 12 points isn't really all that fair either, but again that is just my humble opinion.

 

You are still my freind and I still have tones of respect for you always will and we can disagree no problem.

 

Yes software is software you being my friend at the end of the day is way more important to me too!!!!

[Thee Rickster ™]

Morning Ladies, start of a new day

[Newbeeee™]

Morning Ladies, start of a new day

ROUR