Newmachines comming

[Sticky]

I am happy I have the fms. I bought it a couple years ago and did lots of research to arrive at the decision to buy it. I started with a cnc knee mill, then went to a small vmc, then a pallet changing vmc then the fms all in 3 years.

 

There are a million pro's to having the fms, its just that it is a huge undertaking. I'm a small shop and it almost sunk me a few times. There are a million small things you take for granted when you have an operator running a machine, and I'm half laughing when I say that because I do remember all the issues operators caused, but less known are all the issues they prevented. This is a really good article I found recently I wish I had read before I bought my system:

 

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/metalcutting-machining/aggravation-lights-out-production-272454/

 

Having a good team in place to tackle an FMS is a must in my opinion. I tackled installation, setup, repairs, modifications, programming, fixturing etc by myself. Its overwhelming. If I did it again I could do it much faster, but I now have an intimate understanding of the need and VALUE of all those ancillary items I mentioned above. I'll never buy another fms without all that stuff ( I have it all on my machine now). Understanding the REAL costs matters, you might be able to buy a 400mm hmc for 300k, but to really make it shine with multiple pallets and running lights out its going to be a 7 figure venture. If you have repeat work its worthwhile but there are so many hidden costs that can bite you in the butt and you need money to pay for them and get the true productivity from the machine. If you try to cheap out you are just going to end up throwing a lot of labor at the system and that kind of goes against the principle of the system, although many shops do that anyways because they don't see what the labor really costs them.

[jeff]

when is the last time you have a machine priced?

 

Don't mean to hijack, but we are due for another 3 axis 20x40 VMC soon, haven't bought one in 6 years, has the price gone down?

Probably looking for another Okuma.

I ask here because my boss will always tell me that we will barely be able to afford it, when of course I know it's b.s. lol

[crazy^millman]

Sticky, awesome article and yes not easy and yes all important things to consider. I loved this statement though.

 

 

“The question for us is no longer, ‘Can I run this job unattended?’” Mr. Hogge says. “The question now is, ‘How long can this job run unattended?’”

 

See where he understood how to compete with China not did he need to? They did and look where they are now.

 

Liked this as well used it myself years ago.

 

 

Here is a homemade workhandling device. Floating pieces of wood slow down parts that fall from the machine, so they enter the water gently and don’t collide with other finished pieces. Company founder Dan Hogge Sr. devised this solution.

[Sticky]

Yeah its a great article. I've had a difficult time articulating some of the issues I've had getting to running lights out on this fms and my turning cell, this article really says a lot of the things I've been trying to say.

 

The mentality there is exactly what I am implementing here. Its painful at times (often), but it will pay off.

[Machineguy]

Everything on hold. we are requalifing the costs, time studies to the budget. Also going to look at the OTHER machines.

We'll see what happens.

 

Machineguy

[Machineguy]

THe boys up top got a quote fot the Might Viper LG1370 and LG1000. There is nothing on the net that I can find on these. Like how good? looks lightwieght with a 15HP belt drive spindle.

anyone?

 

Machineguy

[jeff]

15HP belt drive spindle.

 

I cringe every time I read "belt drive spindle"... .makes me think of Mori Seiki MV Junior. Those things BARELY had enough balls to drill a 1/2" hole.

[crazy^millman]

15 Hp might cut some butter all day long in and out running 2 shifts. I run some of the High speed toolpaths on Aluminum and they are pushing 20-25 hp on 40 taper machines. I have customers that are pushing up to 40-45 hp on High Speed Toolpaths on 50 taper machines in Aluminum.

[YoDoug®]

Don't mean to hijack, but we are due for another 3 axis 20x40 VMC soon, haven't bought one in 6 years, has the price gone down?

Probably looking for another Okuma.

I ask here because my boss will always tell me that we will barely be able to afford it, when of course I know it's b.s. lol

 

Jeff, The Okuma Genos M560 have come down quite a bit in price. A great machine at a very attractive price now.

[Machineguy]

Yea 15Hp and belt drive, sounds like a Fadal in White paint. YUK.

 

Machineguy

[Machineguy]

Whole project was thrown under the bus.

 

 

Machineguy

[jeff]

Jeff, The Okuma Genos M560 have come down quite a bit in price. A great machine at a very attractive price now.

 

We bought that mill with a Tsudakoma rotary (160mm) and a L250 Genos lathe.

They should be here in a week!

woOT!

[Machineguy]

Bus hit by bulldozer.

Presention #3 in the works.

 

I can write a soap opera with what's going on here.

 

Machineguy

[Newbeeee™]

 

I can write a soap opera with what's going on here.

 

Machineguy

I've worked at a couple of places where if it was a fly on the wall actual documentary, people watching wouldn't believe it and think it was made up!

[mx247]

I went through the same thing, looked at machines, got quotes from all the dealers, "see whats in stock we have to get it on the shop floor by the end of the year", then poof nothing. I hope they don't come back next week and say we need it now.

[crazy^millman]

LOL I spent 6 weeks working on a complete 2 machine replacing 20 machines plan at one place. Would take $1 million a year on Maintenance cost for 15+ year old equipment and $1.2 Million and year on Overtime and wipe it away with the pallet system I was looking at putting in place. Was going to be a 8 week process of moving existing work from the machines once they were up and running and take 20 people needed down to 8 to accomplish the same amount of work. With all the downtime, and other cost the 1st year I figured I would have made the ROI on the system. I was told point blank if I even had anyone else come in and work with me on improving the shop and getting in new equipment I would be fired. Didn't work there much longer after that, but as the days of lives goes yeah could write couple novels with the Drama I have seen at places.

[crazy^millman]

I was curious how all of this turned out. How much better were the machine chosen over the ones suggested in this thread?

[Mic6]

 

 

 

I went through the same thing, looked at machines, got quotes from all the dealers, "see whats in stock we have to get it on the shop floor by the end of the year", then poof nothing. I hope they don't come back next week and say we need it now.

 

Same here, 2 years in a row.

[Machineguy]

We are on a 5 yr plan. That's 5 years of talking, bsing. Then maybe we get something.

Nothing here yet.

 

Machineguy

[Guest]

Quoted a turn-key last year a couple of times to the same company. In the quote we break everything down; timeframes for everything, etc... Anyway, from the time of PO issue, to the time of delivery; 12 weeks. 10 of it we have no control over. We were very clear about that. Also, we had a price is only good for 10 days note in it. It could not have been more crystal clear.

 

8 weeks goes by we hear nothing. They call us up @9 weeks after we presented the Turn-Key and say they are ready to issue a PO. So we check with our suppliers and now it's 16 weeks and we only control 3 of it. They were livid. We brought out the original quote, (there was NO fine print - all 16pt Arial font) showing them what was clearly stated. They said we were FOS, that we were going to do it in 10 or they were going to sue because they made promises to their vendors based on 10 weeks... 3 weeks ago. :shakehead:

 

They never sued, we declined to renew the quote; basically no-bid it. If things were this bad before the project even started, there was NO WAY it was going to get any better than that.

[Bob W.]

Now lets use my favorite shop rate of $100/hr

Cmon, lets be realistic...  $100 per hour in a Haas shop can EASILY be turned up to $200+ per hour (without increasing the part value or cost) on the setup you are describing and you know I'm not joking or exaggerating. 

[Newbeeee™]

 

They never sued, we declined to renew the quote; basically no-bid it. If things were this bad before the project even started, there was NO WAY it was going to get any better than that.

I was reading what you wrote and thought to myself - tell them to poke it!

Then read your last sentence - very wise to decline imo.

 

I bet there are a few machine tool dealers who would have accepted the PO with 10 weeks and then 'worried about it' when week 11 ticked by...

[Rstewart]

We are on a 5 yr plan. That's 5 years of talking, bsing. Then maybe we get something.

Nothing here yet.

 

Machineguy

 

 

HaHaHa, Do you also work at my place??   

We purchased a NEW Flow WaterJet, let's see...... 4 YEARS AGO.    Guess how many parts its cut???

[RaiderX]

we are on the disposable machine tool plan. run it till it has too many problems to fix then order another same machine. aprox. 10-12 year cycle.

I dont know how they can afford it? oh well get to work on lots of new machines. not haas either. not going to mention the brand but I know of other machines still making money 20 years out. those shops increase capacity with purchase.

 

oh well

[Guest]

I was reading what you wrote and thought to myself - tell them to poke it!

Then read your last sentence - very wise to decline imo.

 

I bet there are a few machine tool dealers who would have accepted the PO with 10 weeks and then 'worried about it' when week 11 ticked by...

We really try to do things with the utmost integrity. We try to take into account all the possibilities when quoting these things. Obviously $#!+ happens that is beyond our control, but when we KNOW something is going to take X and we deliberately promise Y... That just ain't right. There's at least one of our competitors in SoCal that will do exactly that and worse.