Researching CMM options, any advice?

[Bob W.]

I'm looking into getting a CMM for my shop and I really don't know what is out there or how much is involved. From the sounds of it I would be better served with a CNC CMM instead of manual, and the biggest part I would ever anticipate measuring would be 20" x 30" or so. My primary application for this is inspecting 3D surface machined parts such as molds and verifying planar angles and other features to my customers specifications and drawings for 5-axis parts. I have done a little looking around in the forum and it sounds like Brown and Sharp is one to stay away from. How about Nikon?, Mitutoyo?, Zeiss? Any others? What features should I consider? Are there certain models that interface better with CAD packages (ProE) or Mastercam, or is this even possible? I don't know much about CMMs other than what they do so any advice would be a huge help. This is a ways out and I'm just starting to educate myself.

[GoetzInd]

We have a Shefield with CMM manager which is OK. I've heard only good things about Zeiss and their Calypso software. I would definitely only look at a full CNN w/ motorized probe and stylus changer. Manual CMM results can be very operator dependent.

 

Mike

[Redfire427]

Our company uses a Brown & Sharp running PC-DMIS software. Although I personally don't use it, it seems to due the job, and everything we do is one or 2 tenths.

 

Carmen

[crazy^millman]

I think Verisurf should be close to having a CMM product done. Might give MCAMNW a call and see what they can get you quoted. Verisurf is the only product that works directly inside of Mastercam. No new interface to learn, all the MBD support and D6-51991 compliant. Can program parts and integrate your programming into your quality process all from one file. Ever decide to get a PCMM then you have a software compatible across all the devices.

 

HTH

 

 

[Joe788]

Couple things:

 

-Don't even consider a manual CMM. Even manual measurements taken with a DCC CMM will be xxxx, because of the vectors of your probe hits.

 

-Be prepared to deal with the worst software you've ever encountered, regardless of what brand you purchase.

 

-Go all out right from the start. Get a motorized probe head, and a stylus rack/changer.

 

-Get 10 years worth of costs (software maintenance, calibrations, computer maintenance, etc) in writing up front. I overlooked that and got a little surprise the first year when Hexagon wanted $4,000.

 

-Get at least a 700mm X and Y machine. Even for smaller parts, you gobble up a lot of travel with the indexing probe head.

 

We have a Brown & Sharpe with PC-DMIS CAD, and a PH-10 motorized probe head, and overall I like it. It's been dead reliable and still has as-new volumetric and linear accuracy. My only regret is not getting the stylus rack.

 

If I were in the market again right now, I'd want scanning as well. If you're not in a rush, wait until IMTS this year so you can look at everything. Check out Mitutoyo, Wenzel, Brown & Sharpe, and Zeiss. You can get a very nice, very accurate, fully pimped out machine for $100K or less.

[GoetzInd]

Get at least a 700mm X and Y machine. Even for smaller parts, you gobble up a lot of travel with the indexing probe head.

 

Big +1. We have 26in machine but it can really only do a 14in part if you have to work on both sides.

 

Mike

[MIL-TFP-41]

 

-Be prepared to deal with the worst software you've ever encountered, regardless of what brand you purchase.

 

 

Yea no sh!t. All of the packages I have seen (including PC-DMIS & Calipso) are the most crash prone packages I have ever seen. The maintenance costs are completely insane too. Plus, with PC-DMIS, if you miss a year of maintenance, you must pay all the back years to get current. Miss 5 years? no problem. $20,000. On our manual CMM's we do run the Nikon software, it seems to be MUCH better than the PC-DMIS. We are looking into converting our Brown & Sharp to run the Nikon software.

[GoetzInd]

On our manual CMM's we do run the Nikon software, it seems to be MUCH better than the PC-DMIS. We are looking into converting our Brown & Sharp to run the Nikon software.

 

You're talking about CMM Manager right? I will give it this, it very rarely crashes. Huge downside, doesn't work with 3dconnexion devices. I get so frustrated using 3d software without it.

 

Mike

[Pilot Plant Supervisor]

I would recommend PCDMIS, or at least something that is industry standard. Our company was having a power struggle when it came time to hire a new metrologist, and they decided that the quality department owned the software and the shop owned the hardware. Now we have an old LK with two different software programs. Some of our parts are still inspected with the old CMIS software, and some with the new. Unfortunately, the quality group bought Camio software for programming, and it is not very easy to get support.

[djstedman]

We have a bunch of Zeiss here running Calypso.. when its working its great.. but as previously said.. software is horrific for stability.. we call it collapse instead of calypso.. and speaking to many others using different brands that's pretty much par for the course..

 

One thing I think you should certainly take into account for whichever brand you decide to go with is availability of qualified programmers.. No matter what the sales guys try and tell you programming a CMM correctly is as important as getting a good CMM.. and its not point and click and its done.. period! CMM software wont just make a program for you any more than Mastercam just 'makes programs' for you .. you need to be an expert at GD&T AND have a solid understanding of how variations in part geometry and datum structures will affect results when doing the programming.

 

If you cannot find anyone that can program it correctly .. the CMM will collect dust and or give bad results.. and be a huge investment of money that has little return on investment.. correctly run it can be a huge value added but its got to be done right.

 

I cant even begin to say how much I agree with the comments about having it be at least 700MM x 700MM .. and having probe racks.. both things are absolutely essential if you ask me.. since the racks eat up space.. and you will definitely need at least a few probe variations for any job. If you do get a CMM one thing I can say from experience is that stylus systems should absolutely be standardized from the start..

[Guyinthedesert]

We have a Brown and Sharp w/ PCDMUSS. Maybe we just got a lemon, but over the last 5 years it's been down more than up. Turned out to be a real gold mine for the techs at hexagon.

 

But, the biggest problem we've had CMM wise, is finding someone to run it. They all want upwards of $100k to sit and watch youtube videos half the day. Or they get caught smoking grass behind the building. All but one guy we had refused to check anything on a surface plate. ( hopefully, that one guy we can get back as soon as he's up for parole) None of them have had the ability to calculate a true position without pcdmuss outputting it for them.

[GoetzInd]

They all want upwards of $100k to sit and watch youtube videos half the day. Or they get caught smoking grass behind the building. All but one guy we had refused to check anything on a surface plate. ( hopefully, that one guy we can get back as soon as he's up for parole) None of them have had the ability to calculate a true position without pcdmuss outputting it for them.

 

Yeah I have kind of the same opinion haha. I'm sure there are great QC people out there, I just haven't met them yet.

 

Mike

[Newbeeee™]

We run a manual (Tesa 343) converted with QCT software.

It is the easiest software out there - but PCDMIS is standard (and a POS).

The great thing about the QCT, is that it is so intuitive, you can leave it for a week or so and then jump straight back on it and use it straight away. Really user friendly.

The other software can create careers In Inspection...

[Chris Rizzo]

Hexagon will bend-you-over-the-barrel for anything and everything. NOT recommended in my book. I maybe be biased but with Verisurf there is something to be said for relatively easy of use and consistency with Mastercam. I'm not sure about what their status of cmm programability is, like Ron says.

 

I certainly am NO expert, but do have some recent experience. We just had two old B&S manual's rebuilt and retrofitted, just to have something operational.. CMM Systems did the work, and I can say was one of the best repair and support companies I've worked with. HIGHLY recommended. (Years ago Hexagon did something similar, charged us 4 x more and never really got things working repeatably)

 

Bob, I'll send you an email with some info.

[dforsythe]

From what I remember Dmis is the industry standard and several company make their own version like (PC-DMIS) We use PC DMIS and Hexagon is our reseller. We have it on out CMM’s and on a few of our 4 and 5 axis mills for on machine inspection. I would stay as far away from PC-DMIS and Hexagon as I could. Terrible support and very expensive $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[MIL-TFP-41]

You're talking about CMM Manager right? I will give it this, it very rarely crashes. Huge downside, doesn't work with 3dconnexion devices. I get so frustrated using 3d software without it.

 

Mike

I will gladly rock it with an old school mouse and be stable. PC-DMIS & Calipso have both left such a bad taste in my mouth....its good to see that I am far from being the only one.

The Nikon stuff is so much easier to use also....and no importing IGES files....uses parasolids.

[kh012]

we have mitutoyo crysta apex 574 cmm full cnc with probe rack, ph10t head, tp200 module.

this is in a climate controled room at 68 deg.

we use the mcosmos software. i found it very easy to use.

just like setting up and programing a mill just go step by step.

it will load all types of models but prefers "sat" models. no surface normals to deal with.

one thing i found is that it can be too accurate, getting into pi##ing matches with the operators.

 

HTH Ken

[Machineguy]

A full understanding of GD&T. This is a must to understand the machine and interpreting the parts and drawings.

You will need a operator. This is a time consuming job. (a scanning head is the fastest, but may not meet your needs)

 

Machineguy

[BBprecise]

We've got a couple B&S's with PCDMIS (running really old version) and the CMM's themselves are good it's just the software is crap. Granted I'm basing it on 3.7 that we run now, every few months I have to re-install PCDMIS for the quality dept. (they're to inept to do it themselves) because it just starts crashing. The GM and lead CMM operator went to evaluate the new PCDMIS at Hexagon and they say it's a lot better, but we'd have to buy a new tower to run it which means we'd have to change interface from CMM to PC because ours currently uses 25 pin connectors. Stay away.

 

We looked at Zeiss originally, but because at the time we didn't employ anybody with CMM programming experience B&S won out because they offered to program the parts we were buying the CMM for with the purchase.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

We also have a Mitutoyo Crysta 574 (I think) running MCosmos. We're happy with it. I use it to inspect molds. It can compare to a model. We don't have the motorized head...but we will upgrade in a year or so to one.

We're pretty happy with it.

[Newbeeee™]

When we looked at mitty - mcosmos had a 3 day initial training course, followed by a 2 day medium advanced one in a couple of months later.

The advanced course was another 3 days taken in say 6 months.

To check to model, this was a separate course which was 2 or 3 days (can't remember now).

The QCT machine we have was a 2x day course for everything - model compare and all.

Mcosmos is capable, but way more involved than it needs to be.

 

Just like bloody fanuc compared to prototrak

[Chipmakr]

We run Zeiss with Calypso software here and our experience with Calypso is that it is extremely stable. In ten years of use I can count the number of time its crapped out on me on one hand. Programming from models or "beeping" out parts with the probe on the fly it can be as in depth or as simple as you need it to be. Just like Mastercam has multiple ways of achieving the same results, so does this software. Its capable in many ways to get you information you need to make decisions and get to cutting.

 

One of the first things I realized when I first started CMM work is that it( the CMM) will lie to you if you do not do things the right way. The comment earlier about understanding GD&T and metrology in general was spot on. Understanding the steps that need to be taken, what order they need to be taken in , and why; are critical to make the software/machine work for you. You gotta be willing to put the work in to master it, but once you do it's amazing how much information you can get in a short amount of time.

 

As far as the crashing and instability goes I would take all that with a grain of slat just like all the crazy rants I see and here about Mastercam crashing constantly. Get your self a good setup as far as the computer goes and those problems are pretty much non existent in Calypso. MC still does have some instances where I get crashes, but it probably less than once per month. Considering how many hours I run it and what I ask of it I can live with that.