toolpath or ???

[mirek1017]

Good morning All

yesterday I get same prototype simple tool for programing .Because the will be only test one I do not want to spend to many time for programing and I make only 3 toolpath .I let to run my finish toolpath over night .When I looking on this part today .....yes  looks bad .Can you guys take look on this part ,what I make wrong ,this is toolpath ,this is wrong settings ,wrong feed and speed ,wrong tool .

 

this is my pic and file 

 

thanks for any reply

 

t12-183-101-form-die.mcam

[crazy^millman]

Not the way I would have approached that part. I look at the backplot and big red flags go off in my head. Sorry, but sometimes one toolpath is not always the answer to finish a part. Scallop would have been my first choice not Hybrid for one toolpath to try. I see all the issues with the toolpath just looking at the back plot. You have created dwell points all over using that toolpath approach. The other thing was no semi finish. I would have Semi finished leave .005 to .01 stock using a higher step over with one tool then come back with a finish tool and then finished, but again maybe used a couple toolpaths to finish this part and not one.

Finish the flat surfaces with a flat tool also. No reason to run the ball endmill over the flat surfaces.

Pencil for the walls with the .125R using a .25 Ball Endmill would have finished all of that very nicely. Could even use Surface Finish Contour if you wanted.

[crazy^millman]

I shorten the 1/4 Ball endmill to .75 stick out verse the 1.41 stick out you had defined. I am going to put together a 2019 file with some different methods to finish this part.

[mirek1017]

thanks Ron ,I now in mastercam there is no magic button for finish part ,but  I want to find out maybe my settings are wrong 

what about  flat ,  why the ball make this marks ???

[crazy^millman]

13 minutes ago, master80 said:

thanks Ron ,I now in mastercam there is no magic button for finish part ,but  I want to find out maybe my settings are wrong 

what about  flat ,  why the ball make this marks ???

Zero speed cutting on the flats using ball endmill on hard metals. Things you can get away with in soft metals will not work the same in hard metals. You want your motion to always come on and off a part not change direction directly on the surfaces. Go look at the Hybrid that is a mess on of those top surfaces. Scallop produced a much nicer toolpath, but on this metal on the this machine I would expect to see the same thing. When is the last time the machine was laser checked? What kind of back lash does it have? Machining is not just about the toolpath, but how far was the tool sticking out? How much stock was it having to remove in places? You went right to finish leaving .05 stock from the file correct? Why so much stock for such a small tool? 10% should always be your max for finishing on hard metals I lean more towards the 3% to 5% range when cutting shapes like this. Softer material again give more lead-lay. There is a lot to look at on a part of this nature. I am putting together some toolpaths to hopefully give you an idea.

[mirek1017]

3 minutes ago, C^Millman said:

Zero speed cutting on the flats using ball endmill on hard metals.

Thanks .they always want to faster and fester ,they say ,"do not worry " we can polish this ...

and I now is also me ,better finish with 4 toolpath then make 11 operations ......

[crazy^millman]

Here is what I threw together using Morph and some other toolpaths. I also have the scallop in there so you can see the different between it and the hybrid you were using.

Link for Dropbox file

I know what I know having never taken a Mastercam class. Someone can always find a different and better way to do something. I come back to work I have done years later and go why did I do it that way. End of the day we make good parts and they come out right then no one can be mad at us. Yes more work to make more toolpaths on the programmer, but if done right then what does it matter?

[mirek1017]

Ron ,can you save with 2018 ???

[crazy^millman]

11 minutes ago, master80 said:

Ron ,can you save with 2018 ???

I would have to redo in 2018. I will see if some frees up later today. It might even be a totally different approach.

[mirek1017]

ok,I will instal 2019 

thank you so much 

[gcode]

26 minutes ago, C^Millman said:

I come back to work I have done years later and go, "Who was this idiot" why did I do it that way

oh wait... it was me 

[Matthew Hajicek - Singularity]

I had one of those moments a couple weeks ago doing a short production run of some parts that I hastily programmed for a one-off prototype two years ago.  Couldn't stand it, had to reprogram.

[Mick]

5 hours ago, C^Millman said:

Not the way I would have approached that part. I look at the backplot and big red flags good off in my head. Sorry, but sometimes one toolpath is not always the answer to finish a part. Scallop would have been my first choice not Hybrid for one toolpath to try. I see all the issues with the toolpath just looking at the back plot. You have created dwell points all over using that toolpath approach. The other thing was no semi finish. I would have Semi finished leave .005 to .01 stock using a higher step over with one tool then come back with a finish tool and then finished, but again maybe used a couple toolpaths to finish this part and not one.

Finish the flat surfaces with a flat tool also. No reason to run the ball endmill over the flat surfaces.

Pencil for the walls with the .125R using a .25 Ball Endmill would have finished all of that very nicely. Could even use Surface Finish Contour if you wanted.

+1 for Semi finishing. I always have a semi finishing operation in hard or difficult materials. This typically gives a constant stock remaining for the finishing tool(s), so the tools are under a consistent load, which results in a more even finish.

[jlw™]

Ditto.  I also plan flip ops and warpage in practically everything I do.  The final product and consistency will far outweigh the cost of the time.  IMO.  There are circumstances where I don't semifinish and just go for it but I generally try to leave the most consistent stock possible for finishing.  Especially when 3d-ing or true 5 axis paths.  I also think sometimes people don't leave enough stock to load up for proper finishing.

[Müřlıń®]

That type of work I did for 25 years in my own shop. i am extremely proficient at it. ...

Hands down the cheapest...fastest...most profitable tool-paths to run are Surface Rough.....Surface Finish Contour....and Shallow.....

...the occasional Scallop as long as it didn't ramp down too much.  There are too many variables on why these are the ones to use

to get into it here but I did very well with X9! 

I know that there are cooler tool-paths to run but, I would make more money UTILIZING THE BENCH.....rather than

trying to achieve the coveted "NO POLISH TOOL-PATH".

Your Bosses are right....bench it...even those little marks you have there are only a couple thou deep

and I can have what you did looking like polished chrome in about 30 min....

 

That is what tools like this are for. Except I have a Haskins on a roll around which is the caddy of cable grinders...

 

[lowcountrycamo]

I have found that using a Bull end mill, say 1/2 with a .125 radius leaves a much  better finish than a ball.  You can get a wider step over too if cutting in the right direction. Of coarse than may not work in tight cavities but it would on the flatter areas and the slopes.

[jlw™]

That part is going to suck to polish.  I personally hate polishing because I have done my share of it.  Probably your share too.  There are several ways to attack that part that would make polishing so much easier and it would likely run faster.  Time on the the bench is still time on the job packet and the check signers of a company see this.  Put in the effort to get the tool motion you need for a superior product because sometimes you can't polish it.  Bull EM all the way down to where you have a clean transition to a Ball EM or to a smaller dia tool.  Work on your surfaces to get rid of some of that faceting and then tweak the lead in/out so that you leave fewer transition witnesses and you have a slick part.

[Guest]

While I was an AE I did some training several years ago at St Gobain...they were having to bench the crap out of everything, spendings hours & hours of manual labor.....

After 3 days of training and a month later, most things didn't need more than 10-15 minutes of benchtime.....

Polishing might be ok for a small, low production shop but when you are producing many parts of varied types and your bench department only has so many hours in a week, your bench department becomes a bottleneck....a bit more of cycletime can actually help with overall workflow....

[Newbeeee™]

22 minutes ago, JParis said:

....a bit more of cycletime can actually help with overall workflow....

And this works for deburring on the machine too and also any subsequent process such as part marking etc.

If you can get it done in the one opp then it's happy days and consistent product imo.

[gcode]

32 minutes ago, JParis said:

Polishing might be ok for a small, low production shop but when you are producing many parts of varied types and your bench department only has so many hours in a week, your bench department becomes a bottleneck

It also becomes a source of inconsistent results.

Different skill levels and attitudes can mean the difference between quality parts and junk.

One guy may bench a  part perfectly in reasonable time.. the next may go hours over and bench it right out of print

[jlw™]

1 minute ago, gcode said:

It also becomes a source of inconsistent results.

Different skill levels and attitudes can mean the difference between quality parts and junk.

One guy may bench a  part perfectly in reasonable time.. the next may go hours over and bench it right out of print

 

This is the big kicker for me.  Never fails, they'll pick up a 4k lb part with a magnet on a face that is critical.  Well, that magnet that will pick up 4k lb will also ding the bejeebus out of a 4ra face.  Or they'll drag an 80grit disc down the whole side of a part.  Never fails, 80 grit.  Why not go with the 120?  I mean, come on.  80 grit for knocking down edges?  For the most part, in my experience, the "bench" department couldn't care less and are content with earning beer money.  The less you expect of them the better your parts will be.  I wish i took a pic of a part we called "Tiger Stripe" this week.  Guy was supposed to polish rust off it.  By hand.  I specifically said "fine scotch brite, by hand" and gave him all week.  Found the part on Tuesday "done."  It was bad.  It took him the rest of the week to rub the tiger stripes out of it.  Part was 36in dia, 14in tall and had a plethera of hard to reach features but you better believe he got that 90deg die grinder in there.  Now I gotta explain why it looks different the next time the customer comes in.  He hates hearing "fng" as an excuse but 98% of the time it's true.

[Müřlıń®]

Context guys ...Context...

There is a time place for everything....

Die polishing is a skilled art form that cannot be accomplished by handing some $5 an hr flunky a grinder and say go for it.

It takes over a decade to develop the skills necessary perform this art form with any accuracy or consistency. 

 I will agree that I made my tool paths as smooth as possible so there would be less time on the bench, I also knew the threshold of diminishing returns in my own shop

with the type of work I was doing at any given time....of course there are instances where one can not and should not polish,

But to say that there is no room for bench work is completely inaccurate......and I will and have laughed my xxxx all the way to the bank because I could consistently outbid the competition and win quote after quote.....

The work this guy is doing is wide open...

I was speaking in the context of this type of work. 

The fact that the words "polish it" came out of the owners mouth told you instantly how critical this part was.

if the part here was critical you would have heard the owner say say something like....."!@#$!@#$T@ERBDFVCD#$#$#@#@!!!!!!!"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mirek1017]

the owner  told me the finish is not important for now ,the will be only tool for use on manualy press for stamping 5 pcs ,but any way 

This part learn me something ,

rough ,semifinish  and finish whatever what ,and for finish surface better use 2flute ball enmill