O/T Can we talk?

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

We have the GOONS at Loral to thank for letting guidance stuff out of the bag. I believe TRW was in on it also but I would not bet money on that - Loral yes, TRW no.

[iowajim62]

quote:

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We have the GOONS

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called the Clintons to thank for that mess.

[Chris Rizzo]

Over-rective in the perceved Iraq "threat", under reactive in the PROVEN (9-11) threat of Al-Queda. We have Sadamm, but his crew did'nt fly the planes into the WTC! Meanwhile, Al-Queda is more active than ever, and the mastermind of 9-11 (Bin Laden) is on the loose. Heck, the only flight in U.S. airspace post 9-11 was a private jet loaded all the Bin Laden clan shipping seeking exile!

[pimij]

The unfortunate thing about all of these posts - is opinion and passion - left, right, up, down - whatever. However your political views go - directly slants your opinion and what facts you choose to believe. And passion drives your opinion to a heated flame.

 

I am definitely not going to make an opinion one way or the other - these issues are too HOT for that.

 

The best way to approach these things is to read both sides - thoroughly - sort out what you think sounds right and go from there.

 

There is an awful lot of crap, ******** and lies hiding a wee tiny bit of fact.

 

Remember these people are politicians - they make thier livelihood out of lying directly to your face.

 

- oh well - i guess i did give an opinion after all. damm that passion thing!

[Brendan P]

Actually I like Robin Williams' idea.....

[Mark Lovelace]

It's been one year since the start of the war, and anyone who's read anything I've ever posted on the topic certainly knows where I stand. I won't try to convince anyone of anything, because I don't believe most people here (or at least the most vociferous among us) are really interested in listening to the other side, whichever side that may be.

 

I do want to ask one question, though, and would be interested in replies.

 

Imagine that it is one year ago, and George Bush is going on television to speak to the people of the United States, to tell them that we are going to war. Imagine, knowing what we all now know as fact, what his speech may have been like:

 

"My fellow Americans... We have tried, and tried, but we cannot find any evidence connecting Iraq with Al Queda, or with 9/11. All of our available intelligence shows that Iraq's nuclear program was successfully destroyed in the 90's, and that they have not attempted to rebuild it. The majority, if not all, of their stocks of chemical and biological weapons stock have long-since been destroyed, and what remains unaccounted for has long exceeded its shelf life. Iraq has no weapons capable of reaching the United States, or even Israel. At the last hour, Iraq has allowed UN inspectors back into the country, and has granted them broader access than ever before."

 

"Nonetheless, I have made the decision to send our troops into war, to remove Saddam Hussein. Though he poses no immediate threat to the United States, or even to his neighbors, I believe that it is neccessary to remove him by force."

 

"This operation will cost the lives of more than 500 of our best young men and women. It will also cost us more than 108 billion dollars over the next year alone, at a time when our economy is struggling. Additionally, this war will cost us the trust, good will, and admiration of the rest of the world, and will cast us, for the first time ever, as an aggressor on the world stage."

 

"We must not expect that this war will be quick, or easy. Nor should we expect victory to be easily defined. We may well leave the country of Iraq in ruins, without running water, electricity, or adequate infrastructure. We may turn Iraq from a stable, if vile, secular dictatorship into an unstable, fanatical Muslim theocracy, and create a safe haven, indeed a breeding ground, for future terrorists."

 

"I know that the good people of the United States will support me in this difficult decision, though I cannot offer you even one accurate reason for doing so. We must all stand together in this dangerous time. May God bless America."

 

So my questin is this: Would you have supported this war then knowing what you know now?

[gcode]

quote:

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So my questin is this: Would you have supported this war then knowing what you know now?

 

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Yes, knowing what I know now, I would absolutely

support the war. I had serious doubts before the

war started. The WDM issue was a question mark for me, even a year ago. I also had serious doubts that we could win it. I had fears of

getting bogged down a terrible fight to control the cities with casualty counts running 200-300 per week as in Vietnam. I was worried about a popular uprising with tens of thousands of civilians rising up to attack our guys. My comment to my wife on the eve of war was " I sure hope these guys know what the hell they're doing"

The intial war was a stunning success and the

rebuilding proccess is going well.

I won't go into the government song and dance about schools and hospitals and waterworks.

I think this is going to work for one reason.

Young Iraqi men are joining the new Iraqi Army and police forces in droves. In spite of the

terror campaign they are joining as fast as the training can accomidate them.

Young men are joining the army and police forces because they see a chance to change things and they are willing to risk there lives to do it.

In the end it will not be American GI's and Marines who finish the Baathists and Islamist

terrortist, it will be the Iraqi's themselves.

The WMD justification for war was lame a year ago and it looks even lamer today, in spite of the fact that virtually every world leader on the planet believed they were there.

Iraq's nuclear program did not survive the first Gulf War, but I believe he had large stockplies of biochem weapon's. In my opinion, most were hidden in Syria and the Bekka Valley months or even years before the Iraq War started.

The main benifits of the war were the destruction

of a tryant regime and the dismantling of the Oil for Food program. The Iraqi Counsel is just starting to look into this program and the intial results are horrendous. It shows a pattern of corruption leading to the tops of most of the major Eauropean governments and the UN. Money that was supposed to feed the people of Iraq

instead went to fund Sdam's efforts to rebuild his army and to fund terrorism all over the world.

Saddam may not have been involved in the palnning of 911, but his money helped pay for it. His money bought weapons and explosives for Hamas and El Fata. His money supplied pensions for the families of suicide bombers and his money corrupted the leaders of EU governments to work against us.

I suspect we will see a terrible escalation of the terror campaign, leading up to the NOV elections. The Spainsih bombings have shown the terrorist that terror can work and I have no doubt about who they'd like to see win in November.

I wish I could read a history book written 200 years from now. It will record George W Bush a

man who clearly saw the furture danger, yet failed to stop it or the man who drug the Arab world out of the Middle Ages into the 21th century.

Either way he will get my fianacial support and my vote.

[Harryman]

Highest regards to well spoken and respectful authors.

[gcode]

quote:

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So my questin is this: Would you have supported this war then knowing what you know now?

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I have another question I don't think I've heard anyone ask.

 

Knowing what he knows now would Osama still do 9/11??

I think not.

[Chris Rizzo]

Mark, your essay is admirably objective. If anyone finds a disconnect with your written words and what is actually happening(or happened), please say so.

 

Put in face-value terms as such, how can one not see fault with our administration? To not question what was said one year ago, and what is happening today is blind allegiance. Where is the accountability?

[Jack Mitchell]

I contend that Saddam is the most dangerous individual on the market today for these reasons:

He was well financed through covert funding and support by somebody’s government when the opportune time came to overthrow his predecessor.

He personally negotiated with the likes of Rumsfeld during the 1980’s concerning the latest and greatest biological tools of warfare.

This man has all the dope on all the players – every single last one.

Am I alone in wanting to hear about it?

Am I alone in wanting to see him delivered to The Hague?

Saddam will never see daylight again – marvel on this fact that he will also never be given to opportunity to talk, quite simply because he is too dangerous, but then again, the vehicle or potential for truth - always is.

 

Let’s face it; I am probably facing 100 to 1 odds that anybody else would agree with my stance or opinion – but here’s the catch, your opinion is yours and everybody has the right to form one and proudly own it; funny thing about opinions are that yours is yours and cannot ever be wrong, perhaps distasteful, perhaps confrontational, perhaps thought provoking, but never wrong.

 

I recall an old episode of WKRP in Cincinnati where Dr. Johnny Fever played John Lennon’s song titled Imagine, which quickly lead to major sponsors canceling their advertising spots given that fact that they felt Lennon was being anti Christian by simply playing a thought provoking song; oddly enough I personally believe this song to be one of the greatest ever written.

 

While I am speaking in tongues (no religious slight intended) – Imagine that Bush and Kerry have a debate on national television; imagine that Kerry enters the stage dressed in a familiar fight jacket and cap; imagine that he pulls out a Rockwell rendered turkey bird and tosses it to Bush (who surprisingly catches it in full display mode); then finally, imagine peeling off the flight jacket and underneath revealing a fully decorated dress jacket with a few well earned medals pinned upon his chest, then finishes the appearance with that classic “Brimg Em On”

What's a Bush to do or say?

I just cannot simply imagine any longer – but such are the dreams of an everyday housewife oops I meant to say toolmaker.

Bush cannot ever publicly debate this man, for I am absolutely sure that his speech writers cringe at the thought of him straying from the teleprompter lines.

 

I’ll close my argument with a “what if”:

 

What if he stood before a national press conference and said that we or I were mistaken about Iraq’s possession of weapons of mass destruction and stockpiles of chemical weapons and for this we are truly sorry; he could dress up the rest of it with Saddam is a tyrant; we liberated 25 million people, those were merely trading cards that were really meant to bolster our troops to keep their spirits high, and all the other stuff.

 

Drones of Death – my xxxx!

 

I am absolutely sure that my imagination gets the best of me at times and yet I am fully prepared for the punch up that I sense might happen upon me for simply saying so.

No different than Lennon stated with Imagine, I too imagine with a twist of lemon slightly to the left of center.

 

If offended by this post then simply imagine it back for we are all adults in here and do indeed enjoy a constructive debate.

 

Regards, Jack

[Jack Mitchell]

Sorry to use your imagine idea Mark, but in all fairness I did write this two days ago and only toned it down a tad this morning.

 

Nice to hear from you anyways.

 

 

Regards, Jack

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Since the "Where's the accountability..." question was posed, I'd like to second that question. I'd like to hold the Clinton's and the Gore's PERSONALLY AND FINANCIALLY responsible for 9/11. They had the opportunity to take him on several occasions but failed to act. Now this clown Clark get's on his book box proclaining "It's Bush's fault... It's Bush's fault..." for not acting. So I suppose the previous 8 YEARS holds no responsibility? CLINTON KNEW this Osama monster was a Powder Keg waiting to go off but left it for the next Administration to deal with. RAT xxxx!!!

 

JM2C to add to thie spirited and passionate discussion.

[pimij]

If anyone is surprised by the corruption of the European governments and the UN they should simply look at thier own political landscape. How many politicians out there are puppets to the corporations that fund thier campaigns. How about governments - how often do they change laws - that break you constitutional rights - all in the name of corporate dollars and shareholder value??

 

The RIAA and movie industry are some prine examples. Microsoft and its blatant defiance after its anitrust suits is another.

 

Or how about your economy right now - where are your jobs going?? Who is helping you keep work in your country??? Who sold out your country to foreign investors through the 90's??

They seem more concerned about the lives of homosexuals as a political campaign than anything else!!

[Rekd™]

quote:

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We have tried, and tried, but we cannot find any evidence connecting Iraq with Al Queda, ...snip... Though he poses no immediate threat to the United States, or even to his neighbors

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Are you serious? Do you really believe this? Pull your head out, Mark!

 

Does the bombed asprin plant jar your memory? Do 6,000,000 dead Kurds jar your memory? How 'bout any of the other atrocities he's commited?

 

Not a threat? Not even to his neighbors? You need help.

 

I'm so sick and ****ing tired of hearing the ******** claims about NO WMD.

 

If that ******* had no WMD, then HOW THE **** DID HE KILL 6,000,000 people..? One at a ****ing time with a xxxxty little .22 pistol I suppose??

 

NOT!

 

:edit:

 

Yes, I would still 100% support war with Iraq. I also fully support war with ANY country stupid enough to think they can dictate how we behave and how we think by cowardly terroristic acts. :finger:

 

 

I'm truly sick of the ignorance, lies and mis-informations that this country's leftists try to pass along to us. They can't remember what they said from one day to the next, or they just choose NOT to, and just expect us to accept their ******** with a smile and an exposed back-side. (Bent over and pointing at my butte..) "Here, right here.. ram it right here!"

 

'Rekd teh :edit:

[Rekd™]

Jack, I'm not sure where you're headed with this, but do you remember Kerry's resignation letter to Bush?

 

Nothing but praise for him. Now he's done a 180 because it's convenient. How sad that he thinks we forgot what he said in the past. (From some of what I'm reading, many of you HAVE forgotten..)

 

'Rekd teh last post on this subject

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...'Rekd teh Get the **** away from me, you make me sick!...

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Ya know Rekd, I just really hate it when you hold back. I felt no emotion when reading your post. C'mon man let it rip for a change!!!

 

LOL!!!!

[Rekd™]

Yea, I just re-read that and edited it out. Sorry Mark, nothing personal, but it just makes me sick to see people believing the lies and half-truths the dems are spreading all the time, and how quickly you forget the many MANY things that happened which put us where we are today.

 

'Rekd

[Jack Mitchell]

Darnit all Rekd I was responding to another thread and missed your post and then missed the edit

 

Many people on this forum are to the right on world events. A few, myself included are more to the left of current events. Many just keep their opinions to themselves.

All is fair and most certainly welcome.

 

I encourage a differing view or opinion but would sort of frown upon attacking a member for opposing a stance.

 

As always your comments are very much enjoyed by all.

 

 

Regards, Jack

[Rekd™]

I know, Jack. Again, I'm sorry for any and all personal attacks against Mark and his political blindness. (oops, there's another attack, scratch that last comment about Mark being blind)

 

I'm on neither side of the fence, and haven't been for a long time. But to be honest, with the lies and all the other crap I've seen lately coming from the left, I'm quickly moving to the right.

 

I'm not a puppet, and I'm not going to believe the blatent lies that are expected of me, sorry. I have too much access to information and what's really going on around me to believe the lies, (especially the blatent "disreguard what I said yesterday" lies) that are out right now.

 

'Rekd

[pimij]

Here are some links - further reading - as I have said its always good to know the facts - but its finding out wether the facts presented to you are accurate or wether someone is just trying convince you they are.

 

this goes way back to the 80's and saddam - old bush admin and reagan too:

http://www.casi.org.uk/info/usdocs/usiraq80s90s.html

 

a comparative colum on gasing the kurds:

http://www.unknownnews.net/0301-1.html

 

I'm not saying these are right are wrong - just adding the links

[Brendan P]

THE ROBIN WILLIAMS PEACE PLAN

 

This may very well be the best thought out item we have read since 9/11/01.

Leave it to Robin Williams to come up with the perfect plan .. what we need now is for our UN Ambassador to stand up and repeat this message.

 

I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of a plan for peace. So, here's one plan.

 

1. The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Noriega, Milosovich and the rest of those good ol' boys: We will never "interfere" again.

 

2. We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No one sneaking through holes in the fence.

 

3. All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or where they are. France would welcome them.

 

 

4. All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation would be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself and don't hide here. Asylum would never be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers or 7-11 cashiers.

 

5. No "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" (for "deport") and it's back home baby.

 

6. The US will make a strong effort to become self-sufficient energy wise. This will include developing non-polluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while.

 

7. Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go some place else. They can go somewhere else to sell their production. (About a week of the wells filling up the storage sites would be enough.)

 

8. If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not "interfere." They can pray to Allah or whomever for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides, most of what we give them is stolen or given to the Army. The people who need it most get very little, if anything.

 

9. Ship the UN Headquarters to an isolated island some place. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, the building would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

 

10. All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer. The language we speak is ENGLISH.....learn it...or LEAVE...

 

Now, ain't that a winner of a plan.

The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying "Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses." She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, "You want a piece of me?"

[Mark Lovelace]

Hey, Rek'd,

 

First, don't worry about the insults. I can take a hit. I always view insults as an indicator that the person delivering them has no other cards left in their hand. I take it as a sign that I'm moving in the right direction.

 

Rek'd, we all know that Saddam put the weapons that Don Rumsfeld sold him to good use back in the '80s, but every expert who has looked at the issue has now said that Iraq simply did not possess any WMD at the time that we were preparing to attack. Most intelligence sources were saying this even before the war. One year later, you would be hard-pressed to find any intelligence agency the world over that would not concur.

 

Your refusal to back down in the face of the truth is a quality you share with the President whom you so admire. You may choose to take that as a compliment, if you wish: I won't shatter yet another illusion.

[gcode]

Mark,

Could you explain to me how the Iraq War resolution got majority support in both the House

and Senate? A majority of Democrats voted for the war right along side President Bush.

[Mark Lovelace]

Gcode,

 

Yes, you are right. Not only did it get majority support, but I believe it got overwhelming support. I'm certainly not trying to say that this was all Bush's doing, and that the Democrats in Congress are blameless. But neither were the Democrats pushing him into a war he didn't want. They gave him their support, but the ultimate decision, and the ulitmate responsibility for the consequences of that decision, belongs to George W. Bush.

 

If the President takes us to war for reasons that turn out to be false, he should be willing to stand before the people and say "I was wrong." He may choose to argue that the war was still the right thing to do, but he should at least have the guts, the courage, and the integrity to admit that the WMD, the nuclear capabilities, and the link to Al Queda were simply false.

 

The President is the CEO of the United States, and he should bear ultimate responsibility for his decisions. Whatever happened to "The buck stops here"?

 

I would have thought that, after 8 years of Clinton, you conservatives would be sick and tired of Presidents who can't admit when they've lied to the American people.