2024 - Stock Setup (Yes, Another Thread)

[SuperHoneyBadger]

I tried to like it, guys. I really did.

Genesis: Skipped 2023, jumped in to 2024 from 2022 on Monday.

Normalement, I set up a bounding box on layer 15 (useful to make setup sheets and measurements), and use that to define my stock in Stock Setup. Cool. I can still do that, if anything it's a bit easier/more flexible, and I like having a little library of multiple stock models there.

After OP1 is programmed, I make an "OP1 FIN" stock model to verify OP2. What I would do next is never go back into the Stock Setup dialog again, but change the Simulator Options tab to my stock model, "OP1 FIN", verify and then make any changes. For checking the whole program, Simulator Options > Stock Setup, boom, verify OP1 and 2.

In 2024, we have no option to have this 'secondary' stock active without making all the stock aware toolpaths from OP1 dirty by "activating" a mesh/model that these paths aren't expecting. For a quick G54 + G55 job, not the end of the world. But I don't want to have to lock, change stock, change back, unlock, then regen 40 million toolpaths on a big part.

 

Having the Stock Setup and  Simulator Stock separate didn't seem like a luxury at the time.

Let me know if I'm barking up a tree or looking in the wrong place for my 'secondary' stock options for MC Verify.

[Chally72]

If you go into the Simulator tab of Machine group setup, there is a Stock Setup Override in 2024 to explicitly allow this behavior.

 

Additionally, if you launch into Verify and a Stock Model operation is the first choice in your toolpath manager selection set, it will use this Stock Model Operation as an override as well for Verify stock- so no need to ever change Simulator Options to quick-verify an operations set with a different stock model operation.

[neurosis]

8 minutes ago, Chally72 said:

If you go into the Simulator tab of Machine group setup, there is a Stock Setup Override in 2024 to explicitly allow this behavior.

Can you use stock override to create a bounding box using stock corners? Or can you select levels to add fixtures like you could in 2023?

[nperry]

14 hours ago, SuperHoneyBadger said:

I tried to like it, guys. I really did.

Genesis: Skipped 2023, jumped in to 2024 from 2022 on Monday.

Normalement, I set up a bounding box on layer 15 (useful to make setup sheets and measurements), and use that to define my stock in Stock Setup. Cool. I can still do that, if anything it's a bit easier/more flexible, and I like having a little library of multiple stock models there.

After OP1 is programmed, I make an "OP1 FIN" stock model to verify OP2. What I would do next is never go back into the Stock Setup dialog again, but change the Simulator Options tab to my stock model, "OP1 FIN", verify and then make any changes. For checking the whole program, Simulator Options > Stock Setup, boom, verify OP1 and 2.

In 2024, we have no option to have this 'secondary' stock active without making all the stock aware toolpaths from OP1 dirty by "activating" a mesh/model that these paths aren't expecting. For a quick G54 + G55 job, not the end of the world. But I don't want to have to lock, change stock, change back, unlock, then regen 40 million toolpaths on a big part.

 

Having the Stock Setup and  Simulator Stock separate didn't seem like a luxury at the time.

Let me know if I'm barking up a tree or looking in the wrong place for my 'secondary' stock options for MC Verify.

I keep reading about issues people are having with stock models with 23/24 and it's always made me wonder because I don't have the same issues, but now I'm curious about it. I never use bounding box, I always make a solid of my stock on another level. I also never use "stock setup" to verify anything. Right off rip, create solid and input into stock setup, then start file with a stock model before any toolpaths, run first ops, if they need to be stock aware, off of that stock model operation. Verify off of that stock model instead of stock setup. 

What I don't understand about your scenario is when are your OP1 paths actually going dirty? What's the actual moment ("activating" as you put it) where your paths are going dirty?

[Chally72]

15 hours ago, neurosis said:

Can you use stock override to create a bounding box using stock corners? Or can you select levels to add fixtures like you could in 2023?

Stock override uses things that are already created and stays associative, so you can't create a random bounding box in just that panel tab at the override location- you'd create it elsewhere and set it as the override here. Removing duplicate locations to enter/specify the same data is one of the sim team's goals with improving MGS and the simulation experience.

 

The levels selection still exists in a different manner in 2024 for Workholding, and I agree that the flow can improve. I don't know what they may have cooking for that.

50 minutes ago, nperry said:

I keep reading about issues people are having with stock models with 23/24 and it's always made me wonder because I don't have the same issues, but now I'm curious about it. I never use bounding box, I always make a solid of my stock on another level. I also never use "stock setup" to verify anything. Right off rip, create solid and input into stock setup, then start file with a stock model before any toolpaths, run first ops, if they need to be stock aware, off of that stock model operation. Verify off of that stock model instead of stock setup. 

What I don't understand about your scenario is when are your OP1 paths actually going dirty? What's the actual moment ("activating" as you put it) where your paths are going dirty?

With your flow, you'd never have an issue because the Stock Definition you set up in MGS is only ever used for sim, and your toolpaths are associated to the stock model operation, which is associated to the solid you drew for stock. If toolpaths are instead referencing the Stock Setup selection in MGS, then that means the user can't change the Active Stock in Stock Setup without the consequences of dirtying a toolpath. This is where the methods of overriding stock in simulation have to appear in order to allow the user to experiment at will without affecting the integrity of their toolpaths.

[rgrin]

15 hours ago, Chally72 said:

If you go into the Simulator tab of Machine group setup, there is a Stock Setup Override in 2024 to explicitly allow this behavior.

 

Additionally, if you launch into Verify and a Stock Model operation is the first choice in your toolpath manager selection set, it will use this Stock Model Operation as an override as well for Verify stock- so no need to ever change Simulator Options to quick-verify an operations set with a different stock model operation.

So are you saying if I have a stock model at the top of my toolpath like I have here, then verify will automatically select that model for the simulation? That seems pretty neat.

[Chally72]

Just now, rgrin said:

So are you saying if I have a stock model at the top of my toolpath like I have here, then verify will automatically select that model for the simulation? That seems pretty neat.

Yep, exactly! This was an important one for me- I like to do a lot of "in-situ" verifying of some set of operations deep in the toolpath tree, and not having to keep setting Simulator options to look at Op 153 or Op 171 or whatever stock op was preceding the ops is a great change to allow me to bounce around quicker.

[neurosis]

16 minutes ago, Chally72 said:

Stock override uses things that are already created and stays associative, so you can't create a random bounding box in just that panel tab at the override location- you'd create it elsewhere and set it as the override here. Removing duplicate locations to enter/specify the same data is one of the sim team's goals with improving MGS and the simulation experience.

 

The levels selection still exists in a different manner in 2024 for Workholding, and I agree that the flow can improve. I don't know what they may have cooking for that.

 

I'm able to get around this removal of functionality (stock creation) by creating stock models and selecting them to verify.  I like that added functionality but am really disappointed that they removed functionality for, in their words on the official forum, make it easier for training (paraphrasing). 

In the past I was able to throw a file together, use the old method to create a bounding box to verify, and then just check what ever levels I wanted to use for tooling.  I can't figure out how to do any of that now in 2024. The functionality is just gone. I'm not sure why they would do that? 

So you're saying that there is a way to add fixtures on the fly for verification purposes? 

Right now, I'm working on an assembly that has several parts being programmed in the same file. I don't want to have to create separate files OR Machine Definitions for each assembly component just to be able to verify tool paths.   I was able to do all of that very easily in 2023.  Can you tell me if there is some kind of workaround for that type of work flow? 

 

----

I'm able to get around this removal of functionality (stock creation) by creating stock models and selecting them to verify.   <--- I'm not explaining this very well.  I can create a stock model and without creating any official stock , just select the stock model and it automatically uses that for the verify stock.  Really cool. 

[Jobnt]

2 minutes ago, Chally72 said:

Yep, exactly! This was an important one for me- I like to do a lot of "in-situ" verifying of some set of operations deep in the toolpath tree, and not having to keep setting Simulator options to look at Op 153 or Op 171 or whatever stock op was preceding the ops is a great change to allow me to bounce around quicker.

We prolly won't be moving to '24 for a few years (we're still happily on '20).

But from what @Chally72 just said, that's a HUGE improvement. It's super annoying having to change stock settings every time you want to verify something. And having some stupid random stock size pop up when you first start (because you didn't set the stupid settings Every. Single. Time.) gets old fast. 

I'm hopeful this will be worth the price of admission when we DO upgrade. 

[rgrin]

11 minutes ago, Chally72 said:

Yep, exactly! This was an important one for me- I like to do a lot of "in-situ" verifying of some set of operations deep in the toolpath tree, and not having to keep setting Simulator options to look at Op 153 or Op 171 or whatever stock op was preceding the ops is a great change to allow me to bounce around quicker.

This probably the nicest change I have seen so far.  The next level would be assigning fixturing to toolpath groups so that way you don't have to change those in simulator options as well. Would make going through my different setups so much faster/easier.

[Jobnt]

9 minutes ago, neurosis said:

I like that added functionality but am really disappointed that they removed functionality for, in their words on the official forum, make it easier for training

Those 6th graders need all the help they can get.

Seriously though... remember when your car's repair manual told you how to adjust the valves? But now they tell you not to drink the liquid that's in the battery? 

The Pop-Tart generation seriously hampered our ability to get work done. Machine shops are like Adult Daycare these days. People suing because they didn't have time to get from their workstation to the break room, forcing companies to add 4 minutes to each break and 10 minutes to lunch. You can't tell someone they suck at their job, etc. 

Worker: "You fired me because I'm ____________."

Boss: "No. We HIRED you because you're __________. We FIRED you because you're worthless here."

Worker: "AHHHHHhhhhhh! Muh feels!"

[OVodov]

I'm really like improvements of using Stock Model as updated Stock for simulation.

One thing is annoying me right now from Stock Setup  it's still doesn't support multistock for many parts at once

And it doesn't have the option to set stock using button ADD FROM LEVEL as Master Model and Workholding have.

[Chally72]

11 minutes ago, neurosis said:

 

Right now, I'm working on an assembly that has several parts being programmed in the same file. I don't want to have to create separate files OR Machine Definitions for each assembly component just to be able to verify tool paths.   I was able to do all of that very easily in 2023.  Can you tell me if there is some kind of workaround for that type of work flow? 

 

----

I'm able to get around this removal of functionality (stock creation) by creating stock models and selecting them to verify.   <--- I'm not explaining this very well.  I can create a stock model and without creating any official stock , just select the stock model and it automatically uses that for the verify stock.  Really cool. 

This type of workflow is not well-catered to yet. You'll have to continue to swap the level selection set back and forth like previous versions of Mastercam, but you'll do it in the MGS Workholding panel now. The sim team has some ideas for where to go with this in the future....

[OVodov]

3 minutes ago, rgrin said:

This probably the nicest change I have seen so far.  The next level would be assigning fixturing to toolpath groups so that way you don't have to change those in simulator options as well. Would make going through my different setups so much faster/easier.

This one I wanted to ask as an ENHASMENT REQUEST in official forum a week ago.

Seems like official forum is more dead than alive most of the time.

[Chally72]

1 minute ago, OVodov said:

I'm really like improvements of using Stock Model as updated Stock for simulation.

One thing is annoying me right now from Stock Setup  it's still doesn't support multistock for many parts at once

There are some technical reasons that this can't be done yet, revolving around how older toolpaths function and some assumptions made on a single piece of stock. Those must be solved first in a way that does not negatively affect legacy files.

[neurosis]

1 minute ago, Chally72 said:

This type of workflow is not well-catered to yet. You'll have to continue to swap the level selection set back and forth like previous versions of Mastercam, but you'll do it in the MGS Workholding panel now. The sim team has some ideas for where to go with this in the future....

I mean, it was very simple in 2023?  It was all contained in one place.  Click one button and everything was available to work with stock and tooling on the fly in one window.

 

 

 

 

[OVodov]

8 minutes ago, neurosis said:

I mean, it was very simple in 2023?  It was all contained in one place.  Click one button and everything was available to work with stock and tooling on the fly in one window.

 

 

 

 

This one - BOX I hated the most and glad it to see it's gone.

 

[neurosis]

3 minutes ago, OVodov said:

This one - BOX I hated the most and glad it to see it's gone.

Removing that box removed useful functionality.  I wouldn't care about losing the box if they added the functionality to the new area.  They basically crippled the software and xxxxed up my workflow. I have no idea whether they intend to eventually re-add the functionality or not, but for now, it makes 2024 pretty useless to me for working on assemblies unless I don't mind the added time programming, which I do.

And by the way, if you don't like that box, just don't click the xxxxin button.  That seems like a pretty simple solution to that.  lol.

[#Rekd™]

Just now, neurosis said:

Removing that box removed useful functionality.

+1

[rgrin]

5 minutes ago, neurosis said:

Removing that box removed useful functionality.  I wouldn't care about losing the box if they added the functionality to the new area.  They basically crippled the software and xxxxed up my workflow. I have no idea whether they intend to eventually re-add the functionality or not, but for now, it makes 2024 pretty useless to me for working on assemblies unless I don't mind the added time programming, which I do.

And by the way, if you don't like that box, just don't click the xxxxin button.  That seems like a pretty simple solution to that.  lol.

So the simulator options box is gone now? How do you select fixturing for verification purposes now?

[neurosis]

In the machine group setup area.   It's not difficult to add fixtures but if like me, you're doing this on the fly as you work on a large assembly, you have to keep going back and adding and removing levels, THEN, go to another window to change your stock using stock override, which is also crippled in that you can't create stock on the fly using a bounding box.

 

[rgrin]

That kind of sucks for me since I have been using the same machine group to have multiple setups for my parts. I didn't like leaving machine groups unless the part was actually going to a different machine. So I set it up where I would have a Toolpath group for a whole operation with subgroups, then a new toolpath group for a new setup with a stock model generated from the previous one.  I would just go to sim options to select the new fixture and stock model for each new toolpath group every time I verified. But now it seems they want you to do a new machine group for every setup?

[crazy^millman]

1 hour ago, OVodov said:

This one - BOX I hated the most and glad it to see it's gone.

 

I have not used JOB setup in Mastercam Mill for defining stock in so long I almost forget how to use it. I do like others have one Machine group and can have 20 different parts in that one machine group. Why make my process clunky and unproductive having multiple machine groups? Now the programmer is managing tool libraries between how many different machine groups? Using that box I could easily change stocks and different stock model with using progressive stock models.

[rgrin]

Since they figured out a way to have Stock Models override for verify, maybe they could make a toolpath that like stock model and call it "Fixture Model"? Then set it up in the verify logic to do a similar thing? Seems like an easy solution that doesn't impact legacy programs

[neurosis]

5 minutes ago, rgrin said:

That kind of sucks for me since I have been using the same machine group to have multiple setups for my parts.

I work mostly the same way.  Depending on what I'm programming

 

 

5 minutes ago, rgrin said:

But now it seems they want you to do a new machine group for every setup?

I don't know if this is what they are moving toward, but it sure does seem that way.