MachSim, CAMplete, Vericut // Cimco Probing, Productivity+

[ikertx0]

I always use Machsim, I have a license for each machine, but I see that many use CAMplete or Vericut. What differences are there? and in price?

As for probing, I don't use any yet. What can you recommend?

[JParis]

The difference between Vericut, Camplete & Machsim is like comparing a

Rolls Royce = Vericut  - Price $$$$

Camplete=Bentley - Price $$$

Machsim= Chevrolet (not a Corvette or even a Camaro) - Price = $

 

 

[JParis]

Vericut has several available modules as add-ons to just the simulation module, with the simulation you use your actual gcode file. It understands macros and has all kinds of reports you can output. You can add probing, Force optimization, Multi-axis, and several other task specific modules. They have recently begun offering a posting companion with it as well. It can be used across a most, if not all CNC machines.  It comes with a high price tag but most consider the "Gold Standard" of machine simulation.

Camplete is another title with a great deal of ability and it has offering the posting side of it's product from the very beginning I believe. I don't know about their availability across machines though. It may have changed recently, if so someone may speak to that but when I checked several years back, there was a pretty wide swath of machines they could not even offer for purchase. It's abilities place it at the top of the simulation market.  Some machines, Matsuura in particular come with a seat of it. To buy it, it is also somewhat pricey.

MachSim....my experience with MachSim is admittedly older but as I was told at the time, it, even when purchasing licensing, doesn't use the actual gcode file...not certain this is still accurate but it was at the time in which I was aware of it...it is somewhat limited in abilities, not sure if it is because of Mastercam itself or limitations from Moduleworks...it is the cheaper of these above noted options, substantially cheaper. Probing, Macros, not sure that can be done beyond it just ignoring the code.

There is also NCSimul, ICAM and a newer offering by a company, I believe out of Turkey. I won't speak to any of these as my knowledge is admittedly, little to none.

I, for one, do not want my simulation coming from the same program I programmed it with...

Pricing I won't get specific, if you really want to know, ask the appropriate vendors...there are many variables that factor into pricing.

 

[gcode]

2 hours ago, JParis said:

Machsim= Chevrolet (not a Corvette or even a Camaro) - Price = $

 

I use Machine Sim from Postability on our Okuma 5X HMC's 

It is linked to the post but I don't  believe it runs on actual gcode.

It is very useful for instantly checking the stability and smoothness of 5X toolpaths.

Of course the final program goes through Vericut before it hits the machine.

[JParis]

19 minutes ago, gcode said:

It is linked to the post but I don't  believe it runs on actual gcode.

and that was my understanding, linked, yes...does not actually run the gcode...

[StevenM]

20 minutes ago, gcode said:

 

I use Machine Sim from Postability on our Okuma 5X HMC's 

Of course the final program goes through Vericut before it hits the machine.

Out of curiosity, does Vericut often catch things that Mach Sim misses? I only have Mach Sim to use where I work, its never let me down per-se but I'm always a little nervous when we does simultaneous 5X stuff. 

[gcode]

2 minutes ago, StevenM said:

does Vericut often catch things that Mach Sim misses

straight machine sim?   yes all the time

Postability Machinesim is much better, 

One thing Vericut does than Machine Sim can't is Autodiff 

[StevenM]

3 minutes ago, gcode said:

straight machine sim?   yes all the time

Postability Machinesim is much better, 

One thing Vericut does than Machine Sim can't is Autodiff 

Yes sorry, I meant Postability Mach Sim. I dislike that there are essentially two functions called "Mach Sim," it always causes confusion lol.

I had to look up what Autodiff is, that seems pretty handy!

[ikertx0]

2 hours ago, gcode said:

 

Utilizo Machine Sim de Postability en nuestro Okuma 5X HMC 

Está vinculado a la publicación, pero no creo que se ejecute en gcode real.

Es muy útil para comprobar instantáneamente la estabilidad y suavidad de las trayectorias de herramientas 5X.

Por supuesto, el programa final pasa por Vericut antes de llegar a la máquina.

I use Postability Machinesim on all my 5x machines. It's hard to load the simulation, but in general everything is fine, but I'm curious to see what people think of the others.

[#Rekd™]

Don't have anything to offer on the other options but Vericut has excellent tech support.

[cncappsjames]

Vericut and ICAM also allow you to create your own machines. CAMplete does not unfortunately.

CAMplete is an integrated Post Processor. Once the code is posted, then simulation/collision check can be run. Since Autodesk purchased CAMplete the pricing has changed somewhat. Perpetual licensing is no longer available. Cost per license is around 1/3 of what it once was if you just buy it though a vendor (NexGen CAM, DSI, etc...). CAMplete maintains parterships with some machine tool builders so if your machine comes with a seat of CAMplete or is available as a option with your machine, the cost can be lower than the normal street price. As was mentioned not all machine models/builders are available. Machine builders I am aware of that are available; Doosan, FANUC Robodrill, GROB, Haas, Hermele, Hurco, Kern, Kitamura, Kiwa, Matsuura, Mazak, Okuma, and Yasda. There could be others as well. These are just the ones I'm aware of. I've been using it since 2007. It's been a great product for me and a lot of my customers. I've managed to make some machines into other machines through some features I have access to in order help customers with a posting solution. I've done this for an OKK, for an Enshu, and a Mori Seiki. The collision checking isn't really accurate for the most part, and the customers were OK with that, they just wanted good code which I was able to provide with their guidance. Normal post processor turn around times are days, weeks, months or years... I was able to get them good code in hours while they watched. YMMV

[Aaron Eberhard]

On 3/8/2024 at 7:17 AM, JParis said:

and that was my understanding, linked, yes...does not actually run the gcode...

 

On 3/8/2024 at 6:57 AM, gcode said:

 

I use Machine Sim from Postability on our Okuma 5X HMC's 

It is linked to the post but I don't  believe it runs on actual gcode.

It is very useful for instantly checking the stability and smoothness of 5X toolpaths.

Of course the final program goes through Vericut before it hits the machine.

Yep, you guys are correct on the Machsim/Postability integrated version. 

 

On 3/8/2024 at 7:31 AM, StevenM said:

Yes sorry, I meant Postability Mach Sim. I dislike that there are essentially two functions called "Mach Sim," it always causes confusion lol.

I had to look up what Autodiff is, that seems pretty handy!

There is a reason for the confusion, as confusing as that is!

 

MachSim (by MolduleWorks) has its own post processor (it has to, or else it couldn't figure out how to interpret moves from the CAM system).  It's called MultiXPost (https://www.moduleworks.com/software-components/utilities/ppframework/)

When you launch "Normal" Machine sim, it's using the MultiXPost to generate moves.  As long as it "guesses" the same movements that your Mastercam post will make, you're good to go!  If it doesn't guess correctly, though, you can be in for a surprise.   An example would be that you're on a B/C machine, and MultiXPost guesses that your toolpath needs B90 C0, but, when you post out of Mastercam, it goes to B-90, C180.   Both are valid solutions, but one could cause a problem and one could be fine.

What the "add on" allows you to do is to swap out the MW Post Processor for the same MP post processor you'll use in Mastercam to generate the NC, so that the moves that are fed into MachSim are ran through the same engine that will write the code.  That means, the X/Y/Z/A/B/C moves are calculated the same as they will be on your machine.  You should always see the same B-90 C180 in both (to use my above example).

The downside is that it's not simulating M codes, etc.  If you have an m-code on your machine that causes the C axis to reset the counter or something, it won't see it.  Probing?  Won't see it.  Tool changes?  You guessed it.  HPCC causing weird motion?  You're not going to see it.  You're only seeing what the toolpaths generate.

The upside is that because it's not as complete (i.e., requiring a control model to simulate the control state) of a solution, it's a LOT cheaper, and because it's integrated, it's quite fast to check setups and motion.  Your Mastercam reseller can give you a final price, but I believe for a "normal" 5 axis machine, it's somewhere in the $3-5k range. 

What I often tell people about a 5 axis toolpath:

Backplot?  50% confidence that it'll run without crashing into something

MachSim?  75% confidence

MachSim w/ Post Integration:  95%

To get to 100% confidence, you really need Vericut/NCSimul/CAMPlete/etc.

[Mick]

Cimco also provide NC Code simulation, although it is considerably limited compared to Vericut.

Another product I recently witnessed is Eureka, an Italian CNC Simulation/Verification product. I dont know a whole lot about it.

[Elvincnc]

 

[StevenM]

On 3/8/2024 at 6:26 PM, Aaron Eberhard said:

There is a reason for the confusion, as confusing as that is!

 

 

Thanks Aaron, I appreciate what you do, always learning from your posts!

[P_Scott]

Hey Y'all.

Haven't posted in what seems like forever so here goes.  At Laitram Machine Shop, I learned how to use CAMPlete for posting and verifying programs for the Matsuura 5-axis equipment.  A couple of years later we decided to ditch CAMPlete as it was recently purchased by Autodesk and we couldn't update for some reason.  We started using Vericut and I really feel it's much more user-friendly, and more accurate verification of the NC code.  I generally always use Mastercam Backplot and Simulation to get a quick idea of what should happen, especially for simpler programs, but nothing beats Vericut for horizontal or 5 axis output.

My .02 cents for what it's worth. 

HTH 

Pete

 

[JParis]

Hi Pete...indeed, longtime...hope all is well on your end

[crazy^millman]

On 3/8/2024 at 5:24 AM, gcode said:

straight machine sim?   yes all the time

Postability Machinesim is much better, 

One thing Vericut does than Machine Sim can't is Autodiff 

Cough Cough or CAMPlete. Cough Cough

Vericut owned and used at 5th Axis CG Inc. have 105 different machines.

[cncappsjames]

Speaking of Vericut, anyone using it to post yet? 

 

[P_Scott]

On 3/18/2024 at 5:58 AM, JParis said:

Hi Pete...indeed, longtime...hope all is well on your end

Hey John,

 

Yeah it's been AGES!!  Oh well that's what happens when you're having fun.    Life is good down here in Southeast Louisiana  Love it down here.  And not just for Bourbon Street.  There is SOOOO much more to New Orleans than the tourist trap area.  Work on the other hand... 

[crazy^millman]

On 3/18/2024 at 5:59 AM, cncappsjames said:

Speaking of Vericut, anyone using it to post yet? 

 

Nope why they offer ICAM, but not going to even start a conversation about it.

[cncappsjames]

I figured that was going to be part of the equation. Just wanted confirmation.

[gcode]

There is also NCSimul which used to be a decent reasonably priced product from France (?)

They got eaten by Hexagon a few years back so I suspect it is no longer reasonably priced.

also,

Predator Virtual CNC I used to own a seat of this, in fact I still have the dongle laying around somewhere.

Back in the day it cost $1K per axis. It was capable software though now where near up to Vericut standards.

It got me through some very tough jobs, but I eventually gave up on it because there was zero support.

 

 

 

[ikertx0]

I have asked the price of Vericut and they told me that it costs 30k. It seems excessive to me, at least for a freelancer.
I had the idea that the price would be around 10k

[cncappsjames]

9 hours ago, ikertx0 said:

I have asked the price of Vericut and they told me that it costs 30k. It seems excessive to me, at least for a freelancer.
I had the idea that the price would be around 10k

Depending on the options, I've seen it range from $20k to over $40k..

 

As far as being a freelancer, I know a number of high end contract guys that have made that investment.