your opinion

[CAM]

I am part of a small engineering group at my place of employment(1 of 3).i used to be a and still consider my self a machine programmer and operator.then moved me to strickly programing all cnc's for about 5 yrs. then moved me to engineering.they split all our product into 1/3's each one of us is responsible for our product line.the other two engineer's have never programed our ran a cnc before,but management wants me to show or train them to program so i dont have to program thier product line.here's my question to you....do you think it is possible to be a good mastercam cnc programer with no cnc experience?..........my answer is NO

just curious thanks

[Bruce Caulley]

Definately not without spending time on the machines themselves. A few years ago I trained someone to use the cam package we were using at the time and he had no machine experience at all. In that shop we programmed and set so he had to learn the machines as well. It was about 6 months before I could rely on him to get everything done on his own, and I would consider him to be one of the fastest learners that I have come across.

 

If these blokes are going to be programming 100% offline and not running machines themselves then they have no chance of good results this side of 12-18 months.

 

MHO

 

Bruce

[JayMan]

My believe would be, it is certainly easier to teach a machinist to be a programmer, than to teach a programmer to be a machinist

[Lumpnut]

quote:

---

do you think it is possible to be a good mastercam cnc programer with no cnc experience?

 

---

I think they can become good programers if they are given the chance to learn both at the same time. That's how I learned. Do they have any machining experience?

 

But I agree with Bruce , if they don't get to learn how to run the machines then expect poor results for awhile.

 

MHO

 

Chris

[Bpin]

+1 to jayman You can't afford to have programmers that don't know how to run the machines they program for.

[jeff]

You say that they have no cnc experience.

Do they have ANY shop experience at all?

Do they know what a cnc is/does?

 

In order to program efficently and be cost effective,they need to have hands-on experience.

Otherwise I feel that you are just throwing money out the window.

HTH

Good Luck.

[cncchuck]

quote:

---

My believe would be, it is certainly easier to teach a machinist to be a programmer, than to teach a programmer to be a machinist

---

jayman is right.

[Brendan P]

You need to have at least 'basic machining knowledge' or IMO,forget it.

[Guest]

I have to say I am with all of the people who say no.

 

How can you begin to understand how to program a job when you have no idea how to even approach machining it. It would seem to me that something more than just a rudimentary knowledge is required to be successful.

 

Successful being the keyword

 

JMHO

[Shady]

+1 to John...my thoughts exactly...scary to think of someone that has never done it trying to program it. I really dont know how they would even know how to approach the job...where to start, which tool, set-up...much less feeds and speeds and everything else you run into. Im not saying it cant be done, but it really take a special type person to pull it off. JMHO ~~~~~~~Shady

[Thad]

We had a guy that was a pretty good programmer that never ran a machine before. In fact, he was one of the better programmers that we had. Other than the occasional brainfart of tilting a 4 ft long part up at 45 degrees in an enclosed VMC to mill something, he did a pretty nice job. But....I have to agreee with the others. He was definately the exception, not the rule.

 

Thad

[mcpgmr]

I worked at Boeing Helicopters where their were 38 programmers in our group. I'd say maybe half had any shop experiance and they were the best programmers who had the fewest screwups and the fewest death threats from the union thugs. Being sarcastic of course.

[crazy^millman]

I say it is possible but going to take alot of your time and patience to do so. Tell them noa 6" long 1" dia cutter can not take a full cut at 10,000 rpms and 200 ipm. Yes I have seen this attmepted.

[chris m]

If the parts that they would program themselves are similar to those that you have already programmed and are not very intricate then I would say with some time standing in front of the machines with you so they understand a little of how the machines work, followed by some MC training, I think they might be able to use your speed / feed / method to produce parts. It would most likely take several years for them to 'see' new or unique parts in their heads or develop their own ideas about fixturing, order of operations, etc...

 

If you are doing 4 & 5 ax stuff or heavy surfacing or whatever I think it would be a LONG time before you got decent results

 

C

[Surface]

While I have to agree with the consensus that it is probably easier to teach a machinist to be a programmer, I once worked in a model shop, machining mock-ups. The materials were primarily RenShape and yellow foam. Machining strategies, feedrates and tool selection are not big factors when machining these materials. In this case, it was more important to have a computer operator who knew where his desktop was, than a machinist who could calculate the cutting speed of inconel.

[Code_Breaker]

I find myself torn between "yes" and "no". I was programming and running the machine at the same time. I have had programmers with no machining experience that were very good and I have had machinists who were very poor programmers.

 

I think the key to being a good programmer, with or without machining experience, is a willingness to learn and make corrections. If he/she is unwilling to listen to the operators, then you are going to have a minor war between them. But, if they communicate, I think there is hope.

 

One of the things my programmers do, is before they start to program, they speak with the operator who is going to run the part and get input from them concerning setup, tooling, depth of cuts. etc. This helps keep communications open and keeps a good relationship between operators and programmer.

 

Just my opinion . . .

[P_Scott]

CAM,

 

To be good programmers, they will need at least a few hours at the machines to understand what CNC machines are capable of. Anyone can learn the software and develop programs to run on the machines. There will be errors and editing for every job however. Over time these may be reduced if the communication is good. If the communication is poor, or the programs are just fixed for them on the floor, they will never learn how the machines work and will continue to make mistakes that a machinist wouldn't. The overall consensus is, it will take time. How much depends on their retention and your patience. Good Luck.

[McRae]

Code Breaker - Excellent post.

 

My answer to the question is similar - It depends more on the individuals ability to adapt and learn. There are no objective guages that measure common sence or mechanical aptitude - only thru personal interaction can you determine if the person actually "Gets It". Read ChrisM's post and you will see someone that does get it. The guys I work with are off the same mould so really I am fortunate that I don't share in your pain. Make the judgement based on what you think you need.

[cadist]

quote:

---

do you think it is possible to be a good mastercam cnc programer with no cnc experience?

---

I think the perfect answer can be given as code_breaker said "I think the key to being a good programmer, with or without machining experience, is a willingness to learn and make corrections."

[CAM-mando]

I am with Code Breaker and Andrew on this one.

 

I came from an engineering background, but was in and around the shop from day one. I am not a machinist, but if I have to I can set up and run a job (just don't ask me to make rate).

 

At my current employer over the last 10 years I have had 3 in house CNC machinists go for formal MC training.

 

One is a wire programmer with limited programming abilities.

 

One is an excelent setup guy but due to major computer phobia, never grasped the whole programing system thing. He uses MC to download my programs to the machine and occasionaly uses the editor although foro some reason prefers notepad.

 

One did pretty well, and could do most 2 1/2 axis stuff, but his mastercam toolpaths were pretty poor. He did alot of edits at the machine which, with better mastercam toolpathing would have been unneccessary.

 

MCPGMR on this forum also worked for me and side by side with me at another shop. He started as a machinist, and is a very good programmer.

 

I recently had an experience with a guy who went to a trade school for a year or so and suposedly learned mastercam and cad there among other things. He had much shop experience, but he was not a CNC guy prior to his schooling. No Go.

 

I have told my boss that if he wants another programmer, he needs to comit to hiring a seasoned, experienced programmer that can come in and start on day one making good programs.

 

I don't personally know any programmers that come from Engineering backgrounds other than myself (I know they are out there).

 

I would definately not rule out the possibility that these guys can be trained to make parts. Especially if they are generally sharp and have some general shop exposure. Now if they don't know the difference between an endmill and an edgefinder, well you've got a long training project ahead of you.

[chip]

Where is the machine shop?

[Storkman]

quote:

---

One of the things my programmers do, is before they start to program, they speak with the operator who is going to run the part and get input from them concerning setup, tooling, depth of cuts. etc. This helps keep communications open and keeps a good relationship between operators and programmer.

---

This is an excellant idea if you can make it work Code Breaker. In our shop we run 3 shifts. I get input from all of them. Mind you that I was a lead man on the floor for many years before programming. So I program to the most efficent way I see. Then I hear from 1st, 2nd or 3rd "you didn't do it the way I wanted". " my way would have worked better" . "this sucks and I'm not running it". ect. ect. ect. Whiners belong in the vineyards not in manufacturing.

[Chris Rizzo]

Alot of general intuition and accrued knowledge of machining and process are gained from a stint cranking handles on manual machines....knowing what 20 ipm, .125 doc, & 2000rpm looks, sounds, smells, and FEELS like. Knowing what turning the spindle up to 4000 will do. Knowing what climb vs. conventional feels and sounds like...having a sense when a drill is just rubbing, and when it's cutting.

 

Then when it comes to programming, you'll have that little voice in your head saying "Man, that tool is going to scream and chatter like a mofo if I put it in that corner"....

 

That kind of knowledge is hard to teach a programmer.

[Tom Dorgan from American Precision]

Code Breaker hit it on the head. I have been in manufacturing for 20+ years and I will still consult with the operators for input on how they would like to see the part ran. I have been on both sides of the fence here. I have had good and bad programmers but they MUST be willing to learn their way around the CNC Controls or they won't know if they are producing bad code or not.

[mcpgmr]

_____________________________

MCPGMR on this forum also worked for me and side by side with me at another shop. He started as a machinist, and is a very good programmer.

_____________________________

 

Hey thanks for the compliment Dave !

 

I had always said that even though you did not come from the floor that you had a very good handle on machining from basic to complex parts and a very in depth knowledge of exotic materials and how to approach cutting them. If I just met you and didn't know your backround I would think you had at least 10-15 years on the floor. No Shi% !