toolmaker and machinist?

[connormac]

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Toolmaker = an "over-educated" machinist.

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I didn't know there was such of thing as over educated. I can run manual lathe and mills( horizonal and vertical), Shaper (don't use them much any more) Yes, I even know how to use a dividing head. Completed a tool and die aprenticeship program. Can make blanking dies, progressive dies,form dies. Can run ID/OD grinders & surface grinders. Can run a die sinker EDM machine. Know how to figure amount of over burn and make my own electrodes(hate graphite). Know which steels to use for the application. Can machine, heat-treat, grind and fit it all together and make good parts. Can run cnc mills and some cnc lathes. And even taught myself how to use MC. I even know how (with help from the forum) how to fix a lot of post issues. Use and am trying to learn VBS. Was a foreman over a machine shop(was like being in charge of a adult daycare).

 

All that said I still don't know as much as I would like to. So much for over educated.

 

MCX in my opinion is better that V9. If you can't figure out how to do something then it is sort-of like machining. FIGURE IT OUT.

 

One thing I know is my brother-in-law used to work in a model shop. He was one of the best machinists I have ever known.

 

On the topic of owners. Quit your griping. Without them most of us would not have a job. I am lucky that I work for a good shop with a great owner. Sometimes they take in work that can't be done. But you know what? It always seems to get done. I always thought I wanted to own a shop until I learned more about the trade. Now I will just want to work at the best shop around.

 

I am proud to be called a "Machinist"!

[g huns]

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A machinist wants to be a toolmaker, and toolmaker wants to be an engineer.

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Nah, wouldn't want to take the paycut.

 

Greg teh over-educated machinist (toolmaker)

[toolall1]

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A machinist wants to be a toolmaker, and toolmaker wants to be an engineer.

the bottom line is do you like what you do and is the money good.a good production programmer could

do 3-d molds,and a good 3-d programmer could do production work.

[TheePres]

A ToolMaker is an Old German gent, with eye loupe dangling from his head.

[paull]

As a Tool Maker, I've had to explain many times what I do. People understand machinist but not toolmaker. So to explain the difference I say Toolmakers are like engineers but we wash our hands BEFORE going for a leak.

 

If nothing else I should get the "iron rings" wound-up now!

[Sandybar]

I started in the machining trade 30 years ago on the floor as a "button pusher". Over the years I been through a toolmaker's apprentice, after tens years I moved on to mold making. I've had many mentors both from old school and new. I have learn alot from both and would like to learn more.

 

What amazes me is when I ask "do you know how to square a block on a milling machine" I'm amazed by the different response I get. I have to admit I did not know before I become a apprentice. Now I know and if you say you are a machinist and know how to square a block on a milling machine you are ahead of a lot of people.

 

Just my .02 worth

[Müřlıń®]

A toolmaker builds the machines that a machinist uses

 

A toolmaker classifacation today, is not the same as it was in the old days.

 

Most of the "Toolmakers" have passed away. Their knowledge resides only in books now.

 

They knew metallurgy, physics, mathamatics, hydrolics, phnuematics, electrical,...they were basiclly one up on the Engineers. They could also operate any machine tool, because they designed and built them.

 

After WW2, alot of the German Toolmakers came to work in the US. Cincinatti hired some of them and put them to work building the Hydrotel.

 

 

Each one got his own machine to build from the ground up.

 

I would just about guarantee no toolmakers today could accomplish such a task by themselves.

 

Back in the late 40's early 50's, a 16 x 30 Hydrotel cost around $250,000....that is alot of man hours...

 

Today I think I have met just as many machinists as toolmakers that are about equal in knowledge and skill.

[Guest]

Toolmakers classification basically means squat today. Gone by the wayside much as the Class A, B & C machinists have too.

 

Everyone is wearing many hats.

 

Heck who would have ever thought, more than a few years ago that a machinist would ideally have some computer skills to boot. Today if you hire a machinist you look to see if he at least knows how to do a few simple things.

 

{My best Bob Dylan voice}

The time's they are a changin'

[Müřlıń®]

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Heck who would have ever thought, more than a few years ago that a machinist would ideally have some computer skills to boot

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I know, right....

[Thee Cutterman]

What kind of Bull$hit Pi$$ing match this is.

 

I was lucky enough to learn the trade of Toolmaking from some old German guys in the early 80,s. As someone stated, you can now only learn this in books now as they have now passed away. The knowlege they shared with me over the years, i have applied to all my jobs. Wheather it be Production Planning and Process Control or grinding a block of square on a surface grinder.

 

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Toolmaker takes nice looking QC'd part and makes it work/fit by sometimes butchering that part to make the assembly work.

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What a classic comment this is.

The Machinist has made it.

QC has passed it.

Why would it need to be buchered if it was right in the first place.

 

"""DESIGN?????"""""

 

I am a machinist,programmer,Operator,Toolmaker and also follow the press tools into their first production run. If i had to "Bucher" every die i ever made i would not be here for long. If it is made to the Drawing, and the drawing is right in the first place, where to you get your Buchering term from???. Just can not understand how you can come to that conclusion Allan.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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...Why would it need to be buchered if it was right in the first place.

 

"""DESIGN?????"""""

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Uhhhhhhhh, POOR design.!

[Thee Cutterman]

[pap]

they are/were more than that ...

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They knew metallurgy, physics, mathamatics, hydrolics, phnuematics, electrical,..."they were basiclly one up on the Engineers". from Murlin

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most of the engineers i know these days have one thing in common... their idea about all this is "doing it right is no excuse for missing a dead line"... my opinion, well ya'll don't want to know anymore of my opinion. but i can name atleast one texas university ...

[KJS]

As a Toolmaker I feel one the keys to our trade is our ability to get things to work. Say we get a design for a fairly complicated progressive die,and we machine all the components and assemble the die. The debugging of a design is often times more tricky then the build. That is one of the differences between a traditional machinist and a traditional toolmaker. Now a days the definations have become so cloudy that in some cases there is no difference. Either way both machinist and toolmakers are often asked to do the impossible by ill-knowing engineers and usually figure out a way to get it done.

[Müřlıń®]

Hey guys I didn't mean to say that any of you guys were not great toolmakers. Heck, I consider myself a very good toolmaker, but do not have the expertise that the toolmakers of old had.

 

The reason is, that these days, the place you work determines your classification on paper and also determines what type of experience you have.

If you are lucky, you will get to work with someone who still has some of the old knowledge...

 

 

One simple example would be where a cross/slide rotarty table was used to make electrodes for an complex die cast cooling fin or impeller.

Now it is just 4-or 5 axis cnc work. While multi axis is complex in it's own right, your butt didnt stay puckered up for three weeks making the electrodes that the manual guys did...

 

The operator did not need to know any trig what so ever, neither did the guy who programed the part or the guy who designed it. Some places would have one guy do all three jobs, but most work places it would take 3 men to do the task.

 

It's cooporate strategy of dumbing down of the trade so as to not be dependant on one person.

Like Paul says times are changing.

 

 

So basicly I am saying that it does not matter these days what your job discription says.A machinist or toolmaker can have the same knowledge and experience...or lack of.....

 

 

BTW....Anyone who does not know how to square a block on a mill in neither a machinist nor a toolmaker in my book.

 

[Tim Johnson]

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It's cooporate strategy of dumbing down of the trade so as to not be dependant on one person.

Like Paul says times are changing.

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It's not the stragegy of dumbing down the trade. It's the advancement of the machine tools. If the oldtimers had the machines/software we have now, they would have been talking about how good the old oldtimers were.

 

I was talking to our vp of manufacturing (an engineer) several years ago and he was telling me that CAM has spoiled our math skills and we should be calculating by hand to keep our skills sharp. A few days later he was showing me his centroid calculations on Excell.

[Thee Cutterman]

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It's not the stragegy of dumbing down the trade. It's the advancement of the machine tools. If the oldtimers had the machines/software we have now, they would have been talking about how good the old oldtimers were.

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Fully agree with you there Tim.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

I don't necessarrily agree with the "Dumbing Down" statement. Things that were previously figured out on scratch paper, were then done on calculators, and now are done with CAD/CAM on computers. It's a natural evolution. As technology advances things that were once time/labor intensive are not that way now. Granted, the old timers that held .0001 on a bridgeport, those skills are definitely being lost.

 

To me, if you can take a sketch and take it from stock in the back to a sellable product (minus outside processing, and EDM - which is a Black Art IMHO) you're a machinist, if you can't do that, then you're a setup person or operator. Bottom line is you have to be able to make stuff. Today's operators calling themselves machinists is a travesty and should be stopped. JM2C

[jmblack]

I would normally not get involved in such a large flaming topic, but I cannot resist...I have to assume that you are a machinist because if you were a toolmaker, you would know the difference.

[Kevangel]

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I was talking to our vp of manufacturing (an engineer) several years ago and he was telling me that CAM has spoiled our math skills and we should be calculating by hand to keep our skills sharp.

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I am prone to fire people that won't use a calculator because they want to "stay sharp" (CAM and calculators reduce errors) although I understand what he is trying to say, bothers me because the shop I owned before this one I hired a machinist that would not use a calculator for that reason. Use it or else...he fell "off the wagon"..yikes

[Guest]

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I am prone to fire people that won't use a calculator because they want to "stay sharp"

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If you are at all going to get into working with macro programming, you better stay sharp on going these calculations by hand, I do, because though the control will handle the math, you HAVE to lay it out so the answer is correct. For that matter, adding logic into posts is very much the same thing, you have to be able to structure your equations right or it doesn't work right.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

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...I have to assume that you are a machinist because if you were a toolmaker, you would know the difference...

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OUCH!!! Hopefully it does not rain on you lest you drown!!!

[Chip Blue]

All right jmblack ill bite.

Apparently I’m both; let me begin by telling you why I asked. Recently my employer posted a list of every employee’s name and job title. My title is Toolmaker, my journeyman’s card says machinist.

Another guy has a toolmakers card, but has a title of cnc operator. Some guys there don’t have cards at all and are titled toolmakers, while others are titled machinists.

Some even have the title of cnc toolmaker.

Needles to say this has stirred things up a bit, and began a discussion of what a toolmaker was. Nobody seemed to be able to give a good answer. That is why I asked the question. Just as I thought there is a difference of opinion.

I always said that cards or “titles’ don’t mean sh*t. You are only as good as what you put in to it and the experiences that you have had. I have been in the trade for Eleven years and along the way I have met card holding “toolmakers”, that did not know how to read dial calipers, while some of the best trades people I’ve met didn’t have cards at all.

As far as my skills, I was shop foreman for three years at a previous job, as to which my duties included all the programming, quoting of jobs, and deciding how to make and hold the parts. I knew every thing there was to know at that shop.

I left there because I was bored and wanted to challenge myself. When I arrived at my present place of employment instead of being the ‘go to guy” I found myself being the guy that needed help. Just because you think you’re the Sh*t, Maybe you really don’t know ****.

quote: Call me what you want just pay me!

[Müřlıń®]

Guys, I didn't mean that the advancement of machine tools has dumbed down the trade.

 

It's large corporations that have done this. They are just taking advantage of the industries advancement and yes it is the evolution of things. But this does not mean that I have to like it.

 

Hire on at Martin Lockhead as a toolmaker and your hands will never touch another machine tool, cnc, manual or otherwise.

 

I worked with a guy who held a class A machinists and he had run a drill press for 35 years drilling sheetmetal parts through drill bushings.

 

If you don't use it...you WILL loose it....

 

It is sad that the toolmaker has evolved into a computer geek

 

Murlin teh third class geek

[Thee Cutterman]

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It is sad that the toolmaker has evolved into a computer geek

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Very sad indeed Murlin.

My Father did his Fitter and turner appreniship with VW many years ago. Continued on to do toolmaking and tool design. He also learnt from a workshop that was 70% German. There is not much he car,nt get his head around still to this day. As he said when i walked him thru the factory here, the machine tools take care of 90% of the toolmakers job now days. As you said Murlin, they knew metallurgy, physics, mathamatics, hydrolics, phnuematics, electrical,..."they were basiclly one up on the Engineers". When he retired a few years ago he was replaced by 3 graduate engineers. They called him back for a couple of weeks where he spent most of the time down at the companies test track checking some of the components these guys had approved for manufacture. After that he rung his old boss and refused to go back. It is scary to think that some of these up and coming Engineers (and i use that word loosely) are in charge of designing the cars we drive around in.

 

Darren