toolmaker and machinist?

[pap]

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...I have to assume that you are a machinist because if you were a toolmaker, you would know the difference...

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true. i was a moldmaker, now i machine "boat motor props". my pay scale has dropped by 5 or 6 bucks, etc. i don't really care so much anymore. one thing for sure, i will never build a mold for $16 an hour and the tooling world can kiss my grits...i'm tired now of getting beat up by texas a&m mud engineers who can't make it in their world so they come into mine and screw it all up.

[gavetta]

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It is scary to think that some of these up and coming Engineers (and i use that word loosely) are in charge of designing the cars we drive around in.

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I gotta agree here. Our company brings in interns from some of the colleges."YIKES" is about all I can say. Bundles of book knowledge but on practical skills. There are, on occasion, an indiviual who took a machine shop class as part of his mech engineer training but few and far between. Sorry to hi jack thread but had to comment here.

[toolall1]

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It is scary to think that some of these up and coming Engineers (and i use that word loosely) are in charge of designing the cars we drive around in.

 

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gavetta,

i agree with you also

[Kevangel]

quote:

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It is scary to think that some of these up and coming Engineers (and i use that word loosely) are in charge of designing the cars we drive around in.

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A lot of this isn't really comparing apples to apples. Engineers just out of college are just starting their work experiance. To a certain extent college helps employers figure out who has the most "potential" . for example a room full of students all taking the same course, who is at the top of the class...I want that one. A true engineer thinks on a different level than a true toolmaker, They each do what they do best and thats why they are doing what they do. My last business partner had a masters in mechanical engineering. A lot of people that get tagged "engineer" seem to be designers to me and they think at alevel similar to toolmakers (more nuts and bolts)I am speaking in GENERALITIES...

[Steve at JPI]

Maybe it's not so much "Dumbing Down" as it is a widening of the gap between White and Blue collars. We Toolmakers, Machinists, etc. seem to be getting blue-er all the time and the $$$ gap gets bigger and bigger as well.

 

Just to be clear, I'm saying that the white collars appear to be getting the big bucks and aren't even half as versatile as we are, nor do they directly add to the profit margin. How did this happen and gee, how come nobody wants to go into machining right out of high school any more????

 

Sorry to drift off from the original topic......

[TJM2005]

Should have been a plumber...

[Guest]

Becoming a machinist is a trap.

 

You get out of school, you start out as a machinist. If you've got a decent head on your shoulders within a couple of years you are making a good deal more money than most of your friends. now a couple of years later, those friends that went to school or did apprenticeships have completed them and are now making more than you, you realize the trade s*cks. Now you have a problem.

 

You created bills, started a family, began to live life. You want out but you can't do anything else and make enough to survive.

 

You got 3 choices,

 

1. You stay put, know it stinks and there's no way out.

 

2. You decide to half kill yourself by going back to school, while working full-time, OT too and doing the daily grind.

 

3. You blow it all up and say "Aw shucks, I'm starting over regardless of the cost".

 

Most people decide to stay put because it is the path of least resistance.

 

Thus you got caught in the trap.

 

If they told you it would be like this in school, would you still have done it?

 

[Kannon]

quote:

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You created bills, started a family, began to live life. You want out but you can't do anything else and make enough to survive.

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and the story of Kannons father is told..

[Müřlıń®]

#4.....you have 10k of tools in your toolbox that is worthless for anything else except for machining...

 

And guess what, most every company you go to work for will let you buy the tools and take the amount out of your paycheck 25 bucks a week or something...

[pap]

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If they told you it would be like this in school, would you still have done it?

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the thing is, when i started this, it wasn't like it is now. a few more years, there won't be a middle class or blue collar as WE know it ... i'm goin to that liquer store... dernit

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Had they told me in High School about this, I would have done it. I would have got started in 1989 instead of 1992/93. Couple of years jump would have helped me learn a few more things that I need to go back and learn more about now. But if I had it to do over, in a heartbeat. No question.

 

I think we have the best jobs in the world. Guys...(and gals) we make stuff!!!! Everything everybody touches from the moment they wake up in the morning to the time they go to bed is something that one of us had a hand in one way or another. How friggin cool is that???!!!! I love our trade as rough as it is and as rough as it's going to get. I love what we do. We mak stuff that goes into space. Sure none of us will ever go into space more than likely but a piece of us will.

 

Do I aspire to do some different things? Sure. I'd like to be a Mechanical Engineer or Designer and DO something about the things we bitch and moan about day in and day out. That's one of my aspirations, also I'd like to write software for Manufacturing. Either way, I'm going to have to go back to school for it but that's OK. I love to learn.

[John13]

+1000 James

 

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we make stuff!!!!

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that's why I love to do it. I don't see me doing anything but working with my hands, making stuff, no matter what it's used for.

[Micromoldmaker]

Back in 1982 I worked for a company that was started by a man who was at the time 80 years old. His son ran the place and the old timer liked to stop by every week to say hello. He referred to himself as a “mechanic,” not a “tool maker.” Back in the day when he started, in the 1920’s in Germany, tool making was entirely different from when I started in the 1980s. CNC machines were being implemented when I started and I thought it was so darn cool to make them go that I pursued design and programming in addition to building my tool making skills. When I started making molds, I was given a piece part print, shrinkage factor, and then I had to figure out how to make a mold for it. It was a great education; I learned to mill on a turn table and cross slides, grind, EDM and eventually made my way into CNC programming. Technology has changed the way we build tools, for better or for worse. Today I can’t imagine working the way I did in the early 80s. That approach to tool making was wasteful and I would not want to go back to it. CNC machines ended most of the drudge work.

Technology has unfortunetaly”dumbed down” the skill level, but I don’t see it necessarily as a bad thing. Technology has allowed for the division of labor on the shop floor.

It has been a long road from being mechanics who had to know a little bit of everything. The only serious drawback I see is the reluctance of shops to train people on the black art of tool making.

[Kevangel]

+2000 to James, I would do it again(sometimes I xxxx and moan-excuse my french) ,wish I had gotten cnc training BEFORE I started this place, oh well gotta keep up. CNC is way cool...old time German Moldmaker I once worked with said in Germany you spent the first SIX weeks just learning to use a "file". that sucks..

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Yeah, but after that six weeks you knew how to square up a block within .001 or better. Not that it is necessarrily important to know how to do that, but I think the important lesson in that is to learn the touch and feel part of the business. JM2C

[Zoober]

Kevangel,

Your file comment makes me laugh, 'cause we keep hearing 'bout the German apprentices.

My Dad went thru an apprenticeship at Maytag (yea, the dryer folks)and his first project was a square to "file" round within .100 - a "bearing" if you will. So I don't think its just the old Germans, just the old dudes.

And wouldn't you know, even after hearing that from him, I still went into the trade (back in '75, at 15 yrs old)

[Jeff the haas_guy]

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Should have been a plumber...

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After 30 years, I'm thinking of doing something totally different. Not sure what. Unfortunatally without a degree its hard to start something new at 51.

 

And btw...if you can't square a block on a milling machine, get out of the business...NOW

 

jmparis

 

"Most people decide to stay put because it is the path of least resistance."

 

I think most people stay put cause they wan't take a huge pay cut. But I'm now thinking about it.

[Reverend Turk]

It doesn't matter what you call yourself. It is the ability and knowledge that you have that matters. Some will be in this trade for 30-40 years and never know what someone will learn in 5 years. It depends on where you work and your drive to learn everything you can. I am a model maker and I do it all!! I manual machine, CNC parts, wire, sink edm, waterjet, weld, and make parts out of all types of material. Things from wood to classified specialized materials for the Air Force. Oh yeah, I also, design and program. So for anyone to tell me that I don't know what I am doing is assnine! There are plenty of people out there that know more than me but believe me...not for long because what I don't know I try to learn.

So how about everyone stop the bitching and grandstanding and realize that we are all in the same boat.

[Jeff the haas_guy]

AFIT

 

I envy your job. I bet you NEVER get bored.

[Guest]

quote:

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realize that we are all in the same boat.

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Weeee'reee doooomed Gulliver.

 

[Thad]

quote:

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realize that we are all in the same boat.

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:singing: Marshall, Will and Holly......on a routine expedition...

 

Thad

[3rdstring]

quote:

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:singing: Marshall, Will and Holly......on a routine expedition...

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I was thinkin it should be more like...

 

 

Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale,

A tale of a fateful trip

That started from this tropic port

Aboard this tiny ship.