Work seems to be picking up sightly...

[Greg_J]

quote:

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Have one really talented guy that sets up and keeps the automation running, pay him 100k a year, and he keeps 6-10 machines up and going virtually lights out...

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How much does profit 6-10 machines bring in a year?

[Dave.L]

When you compare this industry to many, many others, from a business point of view, it would be better doing something else. For me, this is what I know and what I'm good at so I need to make it work. But, from the HUGE investment involved (all areas) the profit is too low for that investment.

 

A pizza place is looking good

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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How much does profit 6-10 machines bring in a year?

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Depends ENTIRELY on the kind of work and the machine. 6-10 VMC's may be somewhat profitable, but HMC's and Palletized Machines can be WAY more profitable. But for the sake of arguement, 6-10 machines should be able to generate 150k/yr each. Which is a modest hourly rate when computed at 40 billable hours/wk. for each machine.

 

JM2C

[Daniel M]

Colin. Email me. [email protected]

[Greg_J]

So lets say 8 machines, 1.2 million a year and based on a 40 hour work week a machinist makes 65k per/year.

 

65k is 5.4% of 1.2 million.

 

That's if you run 8 machines.

 

Is that fair amount?

[Dave.L]

quote:

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6-10 machines should be able to generate 150k/yr each

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I think James means generate in sales, not profit.

 

And, I don't know any shop where one single employee can support 8 machines. Maybe in some shops an employee can run multiple machines, but you can be sure that others are involved doing other work that's all part of the system.

 

And remember, it's a free country so if you think it's that easy and you are that under paid, go start your own shop.

 

My apologies for the hostile reply but some people have no clue what it takes and they only see one side.

 

Years ago a friend of mine made mention of an old saying from his fathers shop. Guys were asking about getting profit sharing and he replied, "sure, as soon as you are willing to join in on loss sharing".

 

That statement really sums things up. Everyone wants a piece of the action when times are good and then those people run for the hills when times are tough. Certainly not all, but you get the point.

 

So, back to James comment, generate in sales does not include all the other costs associate to run those machines. Past post detailed it so I wont bother re-stating the facts.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...I think James means generate in sales, not profit.

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Yes. My bad. I should have clarified that. BIG difference. Sorry about the confusion.

[Bob W.]

I know from running my own shop that I look at the revenues generated and I'm like "Damn! this is great, I'll be retiring in a few years". A few weeks later after expenses, rent, tooling, machine payments, utilities, raw materials, it is all gone and the cycle begins anew...

[Mr. Wizzard]

Just some quick thoughts.....

 

Outsourcing hurts. I understand some companies are forced to go overseas or shut the doors. The huge problems facing us are foreign (cheap) competition, enormous taxes, expenses, and all the BS manufacturers in the U.S. have to put up with. Not only machinists/programmers, but every working person in the United States pays more every year for lazy bums waiting for their new Socialist/Communist hand-out. I could go on for hours on what our wonderful lawmakers are doing to crush manufacturing in America, but I think it's common knowledge.

 

Next, nobody is going into it. I firmly believe you cannot begin to be a successful programmer until you have been molded into a successful machinist for many years. The few people getting an education in CAM programming do not have the basic fundamental skills of a machinist as a solid foundation to base their programming off of.

 

I started off getting journeyman's papers in precision grinding after a 4-year apprenticeship. During that time, the down-turn after 9/11 lead to many older guys being laid-off. This let me move to through many departments in the company and gain valuable knowledge in many other aspects of machining and tool and die work. That progressed to my current position as the only cnc machinist/programmer for our R&D department.

 

I have found that constant education and self-teaching is a must. I just earned my Associate's Degree and plan on continuing. Some guys are not willing to do the work to keep up with advancements in technology. I believe firmly that, as things continue to change and technology improves, people must do the same to remain competitive.

 

Currently, not many people, at least in this area, have any interest in manufacturing. Look at the extreme overtime most of us work, the years of education and experience it requires, and, in the end - the PAY. It's not worth it to most.

 

I understand the thinking when you see an old-school manual machinist making $30-$40/hour and a programmer looking to make $15-$20/ hour after 10 years. Granted, the old guys show me things I never would have thought of and are extremely valuable in any shop. I just think there are too many guys out there with "Business degrees" that don't have the respect or value for cnc Machinist/Programmers. They think any moron could do it and don't realize how complicated and difficult things are.

 

They will give you a job that takes 5 days to program multiple ops, work offsets, etc.. and get pissed if it's not done in 6 hours. Then they watch you run it in a $250,000 machine that you have made sure will not crash and can't understand why you are pissed with a $1.00 a year raise.

 

I tend to ramble, so I'll stop now!

Keep up the fight, guys!

[Greg_J]

quote:

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And remember, it's a free country so if you think it's that easy and you are that under paid, go start your own shop.

 

My apologies for the hostile reply but some people have no clue what it takes and they only see one side.

---

And some people forget what it's like to be on the other end of things.

 

Often when someone is in the position of owning a shop greed takes over and they forget those who helped them get there, no man is a island.

 

Obviously this is not an absolute statement but happens more times then not.

[Matthew Hajicek - Singularity]

I imagine a pizza place runs at an extremely tight profit margin. If it's easy, someone else is doing it and you have to compete with them. I've been observing for my whole professional life that the profit is in the stuff that's too hard for most people to do. Take guitars for example; if you want to make low end guitars, your competition is in the $50 to $100 range at Wallmart. If you can make perfect quality acoustics that look, feel, and sound great, your competition is in the $10,000 + range like Jim Olson.

[Dave.L]

As I stated prior :

 

quote:

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I absolutely respect the people who are well seasoned and well trained in the metal working industry. Anyone that is really experienced and good at this work deserves MUCH MORE pay then they are probably getting (as a norm).

---

quote:

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Often when someone is in the position of owning a shop greed takes over and they forget those who helped them get there, no man is a island.

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FYI, as an owner, I have always worked (and will continue) to work on the shop floor. About 50% at my desk and 50% on the floor so I am well in touch with reality and who does what. BUT, if you expect to profit like an owner (or enjoy the losses too) you better plan to be the owner that's what capitalism is all about.

[Greg_J]

I don't expect to profit like the owner he (you) are the one that stuck his neck out and took the chance and deserve the reward. I was more referring to the ratio of profit that a machine makes compared to the income one makes running that machine and what is fair.

 

Does one have to work 60 hours a week to make a decent living?

[htm01]

quote:

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Does one have to work 60 hours a week to make a decent living?

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no,you need to live on a 40 hour week, the more you make the more you want.JMO

[mgsanchez]

quote:

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Does one have to work 60 hours a week to make a decent living?

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Nope! You just need to make youself more valuable to your employer. Oh, by the way, it's not how much money you make, it's what you do with your money that counts.

[Greg_J]

I use to have to work 60hrs a week to make a decent living just because the owners had to play money games.

 

How much can you do with $9 an hour.

 

Also, I give my notice to go some where else that will pay me more THEN my boss offers me more to stay. Why do they wait till I have to quit?? Pay me what I'm worth, but that's the money games owners play.

[mgsanchez]

quote:

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How much can you do with $9 an hour.

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I thought that you mentioned to me on another thread that you earn $75k annually and that you thought that you should be payed $150k a year?

[BrianP.]

quote:

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I would venture to say better than 95% of workers have absolutely no clue about what kinds of expenses are incurred as a result of having a single employee let alone a dozen or two.

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quote:

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As far as the low dollar wages, please allow me to give an owners point of view:

 

I understand your frustration but this is not a helpful wish for anyone.

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An employees point of view:

 

An engineer here said that to me not to long ago and I thought he was full of it ( first quote ). Any person who works, owns a house or pays rent, and has kids has a great idea. We pay mortgages,insurances

( house, automobile, health, disability, life etc.. ), have to contribute and manage our own retirement programs ( if we're lucky a small contribution ), pay taxes ( property, excise, water and sewer, sales etc...), utilities, phones and anything else you can think of. Maintainence of house and property. Food and clothing for self and kids. And don't forget the things we now pay for that our parents never had to pay for. Rubbish fees and school sports programs are 2 examples I can name off the top of my head.

 

Now take that inflation has far out paced wage increases, at least since I've been doing this. Look at the prices of real estate, rents, automobiles, college education, health insurance and deductibles to name a few. Try going to a sporting event , concert or on vacation. Costs of things that keep going up as our wages stagnate or fall. We are expected to work harder and longer ( both hours and lifetime ). Have more knowledge and experience than ever before. Be able to multi task. Perform at a near perfect level because mistakes cost the company money. I think it is the workers frustration that is not all that well understood. We may not understand ALL that it takes to run a business but we understand a whole heck of alot more than people give credit for. Alot more than many people understand what it is like to try and live on 17 or 18 dollars an hour. It is no wonder that a whole generation wants nothing to do with this industry. I don't know about other places but here if you walk through a shop the average age has to be over 40. If companies think it is hard now to find good qualified people wait a few more years.

 

Rant over. Whew.

[Guest]

quote:

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How much can you do with $9 an hour.

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quote:

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I thought that you mentioned to me on another thread that you earn $75k annually and that you thought that you should be payed $150k a year?

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mcsanchez, those are metric hours since he's from canada.

[Dave.L]

quote:

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Does one have to work 60 hours a week to make a decent living?

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Yes, I sure do. I don't ever work less than 60 hours and when I am not working I'm thinking about it. I've taken 1 vacation in 12 years and I was checking email and voice mail the whole time.

[[email protected]]

quote:

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metric hours

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LOL

[Greg_J]

I don't think working 60hrs/week is good at all, studies show that it is bad for your health and that's one of the reasons why the government forces companies to pay overtime for compensation.

 

When it comes to $9/hr that's what I was paid when I started, I did very well when I started in the trade and I did very well in school. Wage is suppose to based on what you bring to the table but I don't think it works out quite that way.

 

I make a good wage now and I only work 40 hours a week and I don't want to work anymore if I don't have to. Obviously I'll help out if they are in a bind.

 

I've learned early money isn't everything and that family is under valued.

[htm01]

quote:

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Yes, I sure do. I don't ever work less than 60 hours and when I am not working I'm thinking about it. I've taken 1 vacation in 12 years and I was checking email and voice mail the whole time.

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how long ago did your wife leave you?

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...We may not understand ALL that it takes to run a business but...

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But until you understand exactly how much YOU and I cost our respective employers the second we step onto the shop floor as an employee BEFORE the clock even starts our work day, our understanding "...more than people give credit for...", is not enough. Just ask your boss what his tax burden is. If you can hear past the blue streak I'm sure he's swearing it's going to be ALOT.

 

As a former small business (me) owner. I am painfully aware of how much money it costs to run from simply an operatinos standpoint, and believe me, the government is BY FAR more our enemy than our bosses. If opressive regulatory garbage were not in place, we just may be able to get paid a bit more, but government shrinking, is about as likely to ocurr as man walking on the sun. When I have to SPEND $565/mo. on a car lease to keep from having to write a $10k check to the slobs in DC, and that's not even the tip of the iceberg, it's pretty ugly. I certainly would not want to be a business owner again.

 

JM2C

[mowens]

I don't know all of the in's and out's of owning a business. I just try to do the best I can and use the resources I'm furnished with in the most efficient way. In the end, that's all an employee can do. It seems to be working out for me all right.