Smoking a toolmaker

[Jack Mitchell]

If you had the opportunity to trash one of these PrimaDonna toolmakers. Would you destroy him or just brush his sorry xxxx aside.

 

As innocent as the question is, I find myself continually challeged by the holyier than thou attitude of the toolmakers when they consider us as monkeys and button pushers.

 

We have Mazak machines at work, which says it all for those with the ability to walk the walk.

 

My question stands. Would you smoke the toolmakers xxxx? or simply ignor the slight.

 

Regards, Jack

[gcode]

He is a 19th century techncian in a 21th century world. Like the dinosaur, his days are numbered. Let him enjoy his illusion of superiority. There is a really big meteor headed his way

[limitless creativity]

Best to just ignore the slight.

They know the end is near if not already. Just continue to expand your knowledge, this speaks loudly.

 

Mike

 

[ 07-22-2002, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: limitless creativity ]

[chris m]

Considering that the mean age of toolmakers in the US is about 54 these days, there won't be many more left in a few years.

 

Not all toolmakers are a**holes, though, so don't let one bad experience (or two, or eight) sour you on all of them.

 

I've worked with some extremely sharp "manual" (I wouldn't consider a ProtoTRAK a manual machine, but they do) all-around machinists and there is a lot to be learned from them

 

[jeff]

Jack,

are you talking from a cnc programmer's point ov view or are you an engineer?

and by toolmaker, do you mean the old geezers that think the bridgeport is the king of all machines?

if you are a cnc programmer then, YEAH! take 'em down!!!

Show them that it's not 1940 anymore.

[Slick]

My first impulse after reading your question is: "Heck ya, smoke his *ss." But the problem with that is, odds are he's not going to be capable of comprehending exactly what it was you did, let alone how it was you did what you could do to smoke him. And that's pretty much the difference, like chris m said, the new generation of machinist's are more open minded and see that there is a lot to be learned from "toolmakers", unfortunately for them, they are too closed minded, and actually probably fear the inevitable demise of there trade. And as a result, they talk trash abaout that which they fear!

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

I'm pretty lucky. Where I work, our toomakers are pretty humble considering some of the really trick stuff they do.

 

As for your question, don't burn a bridge you may need to cross in the future. But by all means show people what you can do and if that menas showing up some dinosaur, by all means. But do it with class and humility.

 

JM2C

[n_tydingco]

I respect the abilities of toolmakers, but I have also seen the prima donna attitudes that you talk about [especially the part about being just "button pushers" or not having the same skills "because the computer does all the work"]. We're talking about two different branches of the machinist trade and I can say that outside of the basic skills, the skills that set us apart are indeed different but should be respected as such.

 

The prima donnas are searching for a means to lift their low-self esteem by resorting to an "I'm better than you because... " mentality.

 

[Scott Bond]

Hi

In my experiance it doesn't matter what you do to help (or smoke a guy) he will be the same tommorow. So IMHO, When ever possible it is better to work with the team.

[kathy]

We have two toolmakers (manual) that will always pull the perverable 'rabbit out of the hat' on tooling jobs that fail at the CNC. Tight hole tolerances and position, multiple setups ect. Sometimes (not always) the CNC guys want to pust the button and not worry. Or they want all the fixtures designed and documented for them.

 

A shop I worked at years ago made precision molds for injection machines (medical parts). The CNC toolmakers programmed their own jobs, than ran them. Boy, did I see some beautiful work. That was back in the Compact II days.

 

The common theme I see in this thread is that everyone can still learn, and everyone has somthing to contribute.

 

Kathy

[gcode]

I've known some toolmakers whose knowledge and talent were stunning. The smart ones are learning

and using new technology as it becomes available to them. The dumb ones sneer at the "button pushers" and "computer geeks" and go on their merry way. It won't be long before there is no work for folks like that in the industry.

Years ago I worked in a small job shop.

Our best lathe hand walked out the door when the boss bought a new tape lathe. He said he wouldn't work in a shop that used machines like that.

I wonder how he's making his living today.

[huntinghippie]

Hello all. I mostly lurk around here and haven't posted in a long time but felt compelled to wade into this one.

 

I AM a tool & die maker who, just so happens, does all my own programming and most of the running of all the CNC equipment I have ever used. I've been using Mastercam since version 6. I remember when other toolmakers would tell me they could do it faster on a Bridgeport than I could on the VMC. Didn't take long for them to realize the potential. I gravitated to the wire EDM and really did some "magic" there. Some of the biggest critics became supporters. It just took time.

The other thing you have to understand is that most "old timers" struggle with e-mail. That's how it's been in a lot of the shops I've seen. I watched (and helped) one of those old timers learn to use a CNC and Mastercam. It took him 2-3 years to do what I consider bread & butter stuff. Nothing really challenging. This guy bought his first computer to use at home just to help himself get better with that aspect. I really respect his efforts.

"Smoking these old timers" implies to me that you want to embarass them. Put them in their place, so to speak. These guys are every bit as much an expert at what they do as you are. While I understand they aren't giving you the same respect, you still need to earn it in their eyes. Try including them, get their input on how get more out of job. They may surprise you. To this day, I still pull things out of my a** using some trick an "old timer" showed me.

This isn't meant to be a rant. Just my take. I see old timers as a resource that's fading. Yeah, some were real a**holes to work with. But then again, I can be too.

 

Mike(huntinghippie)

[Kevin Goddard]

Ditto huntinhippie. Well put.

[Scott Bond]

To the huntinghippie

I was trained by the ancient ones from ww2 starting in 1966, I use their basic logic everyday. That was a great post, welcome to the Forum.

[David S]

quote:

---

As innocent as the question is, I find myself continually challeged by the holyier than thou attitude of the toolmakers when they consider us as monkeys and button pushers.

---

I have not heard the other side story. I have an Impression that you are working with a group very good toolmakers.

 

1. They have attitude and owner still keep them working for him. Trust me that "Old-timer Toolmakers" are not cheap. Are you the owner? Why are you still keeping these "truble makers" around?

 

2. If these "manual" toolmakers "continually challege" you cnc people, they must have some darn good hands to win the game. Are you good enough to take these challenges?

 

I do not know who is right in your case. Just remember the GOLDEN RULE. Be cool!

[MichaelJ]

I went to work in a shop about 12 yr,s ago and they

hired this old man 3 months latter, then they went looking for a cnc mill and he went and said what are

you going to do with that thing it dont have handels,

so we got it then in two yr, we got the new one then

6yr, we got an eztrack that was ok it had handels

then the shop got slow and he went from the book and put in the sampel prog. and fix it later so he could

run it in the morning the old boy had wood for a week and he has it on his wall at home so dont count out the old guy.

this was gust the short story. he retird at 85

it was ten yr, of learning that i will never

forget

Just remember you can teach an old dog new tricks it just takes awile and patients and I love my old dog.

[Tony]

I second the "Ditto huntinhippie, Well put".

[BernieT]

quote:

---

I second the "Ditto huntinhippie, Well put".

---

I agree...very well stated. I am now one of the 'old' toolmakers and over the years I have worked with both young and old arrogant a**hole toolmakers and also some of the sweetest guys you could ever meet. Know what? I learned something from all of them. I think the 'Golden Rule' comment really does apply.

 

BerTau

[Jack Mitchell]

Hey huntinhippie,

I do respect your reply as well as the many other excellant responses from this user group.

 

Please read the original post - you can easily be caught up with the chat of old geezers etc!

 

I have not slighted the toolmakers age or ability as yet.

 

I too am also a certified general machinist, and certified tool & die maker, here in Canada.

 

The toolmaker I speak of is 57, I am 46 with a penchant for complex and difficult tools, dies, one-offs etc!

 

My current position requires that I do a certain amount of prototyping and production machining.

 

The insult of a toolmaker looking at me a stating that he is not a production machinist while infering that I am is a large mistake, I am pissed.

 

I believe you are right in your assessment that he couldn't comprehend what it is that I can do, or, if I do this I don't believe he could comprehend the job I might do anyway.

 

I don't mean to humiliate or damage a persons self worth, I do however have a problem with the arrogant attitude.

 

I have personally learned so very much from so many other professionals that I have worked with;

In fact if I could pigeon-hole my abilities, I would have to say that I am what I have learned from those around me, and I hope that I will always enjoy learning and meeting these challenges.

 

Bottom line - I'm leaning towards smoking him as opposed to turning the other cheek. Keep in mind how any of you people would feel if an inferior toolmaker threw this in your face.

 

Convince me some more please - If I do this, only me, my supervisor, and the toolmaker will be aware ( I don't have the right to humiliate another person - the supervisor would do this).

 

Regards, Your humble production machinist - Jack

[Tony]

Jack

You are right, They are out there

two guys come to my mind about being

complete "Kn*b's"

There Nick name's were: "Marky Mark" and "Papa smurf"

 

[ 07-23-2002, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: Tony ]

[Jack Mitchell]

Tony,

What the hell? I like Marky Mark and Poppa Smurf;

And so should you.

 

What's it going to be? Smoke him, or pass it bye?

 

Regards, Your humble production machinist.

[Tony]

Pass em buy...

Two out of the fifty in the past two decades

aren't so Bad...and you know what I hate to say it, But I learned something from both of them,

Jerk's!

[chris m]

Jack

 

After reading your detailed post breaking it down I think I must agree with the gentlemen encouraging you to let it pass by. As a comparatively young man (29) in this trade I have had to deal with superior attitudes from many people in my relatively short career; they typically evaporate as my proficiency and willingness to learn and cooperate become apparent to those involved. Sometimes I am still irritated by certain individuals who think that they will always know better, but I just try to let it roll off my back; I feel that I am the better man for it.

 

Just my take on the situation

 

C

[KJS]

As a toolmaker who does his own programing and runs the cnc's himself I can understand how some cnc operators get offended. I also feel that some toolmakers can be arrogent but as long as molds and dies need tweeking, repairs, or trouble shooting there will be a need for toolmakers. So to say our days are numbered is just as arrogent as toolmakers referring to cnc operators as "button pushers".

[Oppiz]

Being a machinist first, then a toolmaker, now a programmer, its been my experience that if your programming is good and you are willing to listen to the older toolmakers and apply some of their ideas to your programs, all will benefit. The better job I do the more toolmakers rely on me and respect the CNC side of the trade. Its best to smile and say nothing derogatory. Sooner or later they will need your help or you'll need theirs.