Big-plus spindle questions

[Rocketmachinist]

I like the idea but was wondering what machine companies can handle Big-plus type of holder. I've looked all over and cannot find an explanation on what you need to use big plus holders.

[Tony35]

we have 2 kitamuras 1 vmc 1 hmc here with big plus in them and use big kaiser big plus holders on certain tools

 

you need to have a big plus spindle

[Newbeeee™]

Robodrill is big plus (BBT - Face and Taper are other designations) as standard.

Matsuura's are standard.

I believe chevalier are now doing this as standard as well.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

BIgPlus is huge. I woudl not own a machine tool without it. It's not necessarily a requirement for every operation but when yo uneed to hold a floor thickness and you're using multiple tools on the floor and you want zero mis-match, BigPlus takes 99% of the headaches away from acomplishing that. If you wnat to rough with long reach tools, it can help quite a bit. There's LOTS of reasons to have it and NONE to not have it.

 

JM2C

[Watcher]

There's LOTS of reasons to have it and NONE to not have it.

JM2C

 

James, would you say it is better than a HSK100 interface?

 

We got an offer for a OKUMA Vertical lathe and Big-plus is an option... but we already have HSK100 and it's amazing as well...

 

What do you think?

[Rocketmachinist]

Yea that would defiantly be nice but I know i will not be able to use it because I only have a Haas. I was just trying to get more information about what manufacturers offer that as an option.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

My personal preference has always been CAT/BT with BigPlus over HSK in most cases because the mass of the holder aids in vibration dampening, in turning applications, HSK (ICTM Standard) is the superior option.

 

JM2C

[SKIR68]

Okuma offers it and so does Johnford.

[Leigh @ Kodiak]

Just out of curiosity, what problems could you run into if you run a bigplus holder in a non-bigplus spindle?

[YoDoug®]

Just out of curiosity, what problems could you run into if you run a bigplus holder in a non-bigplus spindle?

 

 

Depends on the particular spindle, but most likely it would end with damaged spindle. The difference of Big plus is essentially a tighter tolerance between the face and taper dimensions. If you put a big plus holder in a non-big plus spindle there is a likely chance you would be contacting the face and not getting full taper contact. this would allow the tool to move round and eventually start to damage to taper.

 

 

[GoetzInd]

Just out of curiosity, what problems could you run into if you run a bigplus holder in a non-bigplus spindle?

 

I don't think there are any issues with that. The close the "Gap" from both sides. So, you can use big plus in normal spindles, and non big plus holders in big plus spindles.

 

Mike

[Sticky]

Depends on the particular spindle, but most likely it would end with damaged spindle. The difference of Big plus is essentially a tighter tolerance between the face and taper dimensions. If you put a big plus holder in a non-big plus spindle there is a likely chance you would be contacting the face and not getting full taper contact. this would allow the tool to move round and eventually start to damage to taper.

 

No, big plus is added material to the spindle and tool holder, running a big plus holder in a standard spindle will be fine, but offer no advantage as no contact will be made on the spindle face to tool holder face.

[Tony35]

i was told i can run a normal holder in a big plus spindle

but could not run a big plus holder in a normal spindle

 

maybe cnc apps guy1 will chime in on this

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

BIgPlus holder is OK in normal spidle and NOrmal Holder (obviously) is OK in BigPlus Spindle.

 

The ONLY issue and it's really a non-issue is the gap is a little smaller when running a BigPlus holder in a normal spindle but you would only be in any possiblereal danger in a reground spindle.

 

There are no advantages (other than the quality of the holder over standard holders) of running a BigPls holder in a normal spindle.

 

HTH

[Tim Johnson]

Apparently my views on Big Plus is going to get a little action going.

 

Because BIg Plus has contact on both the face and the taper there can be no adjustment as the spindle taper wears. When the wear starts occuring (and it won't need much) the rigid contact is on the face only while the slop on the taper starts affecting and side load cutting resulting in chatter and reduced tool life. If you use Big Plus holders for only milling (what they were disigned for and recommended by Big Kaiser) along with standard holders (for drilling process) the spindle wear will be more rapid as there is no face contact to limit drawbar pull. The Big Kaiser rep tried to tell us that there would not be tool wear but after arguing over this issue the rep did say they recommended having the spindle reground once a year. I asked how many spindle regrinders were there in the field that was qualified to grind Big Plus spindles and he didn't know. A few days later he e-mailed back that there were no "certified" grinders but they did supply gages. Our Pennsylvania shop started having issues with Big Plus and thier Big Keiser rep told them to hold rpm's to 4000.

 

 

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Apparently my views on Big Plus is going to get a little action going.

LOL

 

...The Big Kaiser rep tried to tell us that there would not be tool wear but after arguing over this issue the rep did say they recommended having the spindle reground once a year.

:o

 

I'd find a new rep. Clearly that guy is as sharp as a bowling ball... and I'm being kind.

 

 

I asked how many spindle regrinders were there in the field that was qualified to grind Big Plus spindles and he didn't know. A few days later he e-mailed back that there were no "certified" grinders but they did supply gages. Our Pennsylvania shop started having issues with Big Plus and thier Big Keiser rep told them to hold rpm's to 4000.

:o

 

I'd seriously find another rep. and would NEVER let him in my shop again with advise like that. What a maroon. I'm gonna have to shar that with my AE buddies. We're gonna laugh HARD!

[Tim Johnson]

So are you saying there is no wear with Big Plus? I have no personal experience with them but the PA shop says they're worthless to them except for low rpm applications like large slitting saws, face mills. That and involved discussions with several tool venders brought us to the decision to stay away from Big Plus.

 

I would like to hear your side though.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

So are you saying there is no wear with Big Plus?

ANY time you have two surfaces contacting one another, you're going to have wear. How much? That depends on numerous factors.

 

I have no personal experience with them but the PA shop says they're worthless to them except for low rpm applications like large slitting saws, face mills.

I have customers using them at 20k+ on a regular basis and they swear by them. On numerous occasions customers have had various issues (chatter, poor surface finish, concentricity, etc...) and BigPlus has solved them. Granted, we're not talking about customers that have reground their spindles, or have run their machines for years and are just now investigating what BigPlus can do for them. We're talking about relatively new (5 years or newer IIRC) machines and customers that don;t beat the $#!+ out of their machines.

 

That and involved discussions with several tool venders brought us to the decision to stay away from Big Plus.

"Tool Vendors". You mean guys that benefit from selling more tools as opposed to fewer? Yeah, I trust those guys. Uh huh... I'd like that list of tool vendors... so I know who NOT to call when I have a tough application. I have a customer that recently put a long reach 1" tool in a BigPlus shrink fit holder... He used to replace those tools weekly. NOw he replaces them monthly. The tooling guy is not happy that he's only selling 1 a month as opposed to 4. I'm not sayin'... I'm just sayin'. You gotta look at the source.

 

I would like to hear your side though.

BigPlus is not the be-all and end-all... It's just another available tool in the box to help with manufacturing. If a spindle is damaged, or if you wrench your retention knobs too tight, if you don't keep debris from your tapers you're going to have issues. No getting around that.

[Newbeeee™]

If you put a standard holder in a standard spindle (BT40), nominally there's 2mm (80thou) of gap.

A BBT holder has nominally 1mm (40 thou) 'added' to the flange face.

A BBT spindle has nominally 1mm (40 thou) 'added' to the flange face.

So, a standard holder will fit into a BBT spindle (leaving 1mm gap), and a BBT holder will fit into a standard spindle (also leaving a 1mm gap).

The design of the BBT system is (by memory) that if you were to load a BBT holder into a BBT spindle (by hand with no pull stud), then when the holder is 'home', there should be around 8tenths air gap between the flange of the holder, and flange of the spindle.

When the pull stud is fitted and the drawbar is pulling the holder back into the taper, elastic deformation takes up the 8tenths, and you end up with a face to face and taper to taper contact.

Voila!

 

I haven't heard of standard holders wearing BBT spindles etc. We run them on our robo, and the previous place runs them like this on a Matsuura R800 (20k) + H300 (15k) for the past 10 years with no problems.

Elastic deformation does what it says - 'bends' to allow face to face, and 'returns' back when released.

If it didn't it would be permanent deformation.

 

I'm with James - change your support!

HTH

[Joe788]

Apparently my views on Big Plus is going to get a little action going.

 

Because BIg Plus has contact on both the face and the taper there can be no adjustment as the spindle taper wears. When the wear starts occuring (and it won't need much) the rigid contact is on the face only while the slop on the taper starts affecting and side load cutting resulting in chatter and reduced tool life. If you use Big Plus holders for only milling (what they were disigned for and recommended by Big Kaiser) along with standard holders (for drilling process) the spindle wear will be more rapid as there is no face contact to limit drawbar pull. The Big Kaiser rep tried to tell us that there would not be tool wear but after arguing over this issue the rep did say they recommended having the spindle reground once a year. I asked how many spindle regrinders were there in the field that was qualified to grind Big Plus spindles and he didn't know. A few days later he e-mailed back that there were no "certified" grinders but they did supply gages. Our Pennsylvania shop started having issues with Big Plus and thier Big Keiser rep told them to hold rpm's to 4000.

 

Holy Moly. What other tool holder lines does your Kaiser rep also sell?

 

I'd wager if you relayed all of his "info" directly to Big Kaiser, or at least to the regional sales manager, he would no longer be a Big Kaiser rep.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

^ Ditto on that one!!!!

[Greg Williams]

My personal preference has always been CAT/BT with BigPlus over HSK in most cases because the mass of the holder aids in vibration dampening, in turning applications, HSK (ICTM Standard) is the superior option.

 

I agree, If you are looking at a lathe then HSK or CAPTO is the best option, as these options will maintain the turning tools centre height. For a mill BT/CAT

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

I agree, If you are looking at a lathe then HSK or CAPTO is the best option, as these options will maintain the turning tools centre height. For a mill BT/CAT

+1.... and one better than HSK for turning is HSK made to ICTM Standards

[MIL-TFP-41]

About big-plus and spindle wear....it can and does happen. To what degree....I have no idea. I do know that a 10 year old spindle that has been rode hard is likely to be slightly different than a 1 month old one. Lyndex/Nikken's "3-lock" design is more a forgiving dual contact system.(They use Bellville washers to maintain contact) Downside...you cannot run a 3-lock holder in a standard spindle.

[mkd]

while i looked into tooling a nice mori cat40 a few years ago, i was considering going with Big Plus tooling. until i priced it.

 

then considering just using Big Plus on specail applications, i could not see any guarantee that the gap with the standard tools would not allow chips to interfer with the loading of a big plus.

anyone else see a problem here?