looking for info on first 3+2 5 axis machine

[FTI2007]

The boss said we might finnaly look into getting our first 5 axis (3+2) machine. Nobody here as any experience with these so I am looking for any advise on these. We do not do high tolereance work but we do alot of 3d work. We currently have mainly haas mills and couple older fadals. So I think we will mainly be looking at a Haas VF-5/40TR. I wouldnt mind also checking prices and comparing Mazak and Makino but I have no idea if they would even compare on price. Any advise on the haas or others that would be close in price to the Haas would be great. Also some ideas on what to expect on tooling and fixtureing since this would all be new to us. Also is thru spindle coolant worth the price? We have never had that either. I also assume some type of gcode verification software would be needed.? It pretty much all comes down to $$ in the end for this place so I just want to make sure they know what to expect if they come asking questions. Thanks

[Guest]

The Matsuura MX-520 is worth a look too. Plus, they are in St. Paul.

[FTI2007]

I will check that out. Thanks

[GoetzInd]

The Mats is going to be a whole other level of machine from the HAAS. That being said, it will be reflected in price. I would def lean that way though if you have some tight positional accuracies to hold between planes.

 

Mike

[Guest]

@ Mike,

 

That machine does not cost as much as you think it does which is why I suggested a look.

 

Now a MAM-72 on the other hand... The difference in price from that and a Haas is probably the difference between a high-end V8 fully loaded Rousch Mustang and a Lamborghini Aventador give or take a few k.

 

A note on accuracy, if you need to hold .002" or better True Position between planes, the Haas is not the right machine for you. Not trying to bash, we've just done a lot of testing and it gets downright impossible to hold that tolerance for production. .005" True Position, yeah, you can probably do that as long as you're not positioning then rotating to another position, then moving back. Do everything you can at one angle, move to the next, etc...

[Jayson Kramer]

Looking forward to playing with the MX-520 to see how it will show at the shows. I may have another customer for it instead of a Haas. I will have them come to Westec.

[Guest]

We have the 500mm Round Table for the one you'll work on. We just got a Laser and Probing installed on it Friday.

[FTI2007]

I should have mentioned we do not run production. mostly 1 or 2. at most maybe 10. most of our parts are +- .005. which is why we run haas. I just like to keep my options open.

[mkd]

The Matsuura MX-520 is worth a look too. Plus, they are in St. Paul.

nice

[FTI2007]

the tightest we get is +- .0005 on some bores

[Guest]

I'm not talking ±.005 size, I'm talking .005 True Position. COMPLETELY different animal. .005 True Position is roughly ±.0025 give or take a few .0001's

 

Just because a given VMC can hold that True Position does not mean when you put a Tilt-Rotary you'll still be able to hold and maintain it (even on a onsey-twosey). We made a mistake once selling one to a medical manufacturer. True position was .050mm (0.00196" or roughly ±.000984) and we could not get good parts off consistently with the TRT. No matter what we did. We even tried to do everything on a face, move to the next face, do everything on that face, move to the next face, etc... We still could not hold it. Granted medical stuff is some of the most tight tolerance work out there, but the key to success is buying the right tool for the right job.

 

Haas has made a killing being the right tool for 60~70% of the jobs out there.

 

 

A manual Bridgeport, or Radial Drill should be able to produce a bore ±.0005 honestly. That's more a function of tooling and setup than the CNC's accuracy.

[RaiderX]

We are running several Haas near the configuration you are looking at and holding tolerance that you mentioned. However it is at a cost, you must account and program for lash, etc.

you mentioned a lot of surfacing, I think this could be key to needing a bit higher end machine it adds up rather rapidly.

 

what materials are you cutting, could also be really key.

 

size and configuration of parts will negate what kind of fixturing you may want to use lot of options out there.

jm2c

[FTI2007]

We cut 50% steel and 50% aluminum. Nothing to special. right now I end up either bolting blocks down or putting them in a vice to work on sides and the top of a block. were hoping to save some time by doing 1 setup. Also on some blocks I end up having to use some pretty long tools to get in corners that We think with a 5x we could simply tilt the block and shorten up the tools to save time and get better finishes. parts vary in size from maybe a 2l x 2w x 2h to 8w x12L x 6H with the ocassinoal larger. I just did somthing that was 7w x 26l x 5h that I had to use a sine plate to put some angled holes and pockets in the long direction. But I dont expect that to fit in most machines.

[within a thou]

Almost never hear anyone ever mention Doosan on here but for the price they are hard to beat IMHO.

[FTI2007]

anybody have any input one the Haas UMC-750. It has 3 times the weight capacity of the VF5/TR

 

[mkd]

^^seems to be in a strong market position for the money.

certainly an entry level product, but not a toy-like entry.

 

I'd imaging there will be forthcoming software patches, as this product is in it;s infancy. I'd be interested to know if they went with wear prone worm gears or newer roller designs.

[Mr. M]

If you are looking at more budget machines Hardinge has the GX250 and the GXR 320. But if we are going down a high end road the OKUMA MU machines are ones to consider. On the MU-500 you can get them with a 1000rpm on the platter that you can turn with. We have a customer running one that is easily holding .0005 total tolerance on turned diameters in multiple positions.

[Newbeeee™]

That UMC750 does look to be a well laid out machine (ie plenty of clearances/space in there).

The Matsuura MX520 is one sweet machine - I've seen a couple in the flesh and they're not mega bucks.

In fact one of those with a zero point location/table and a few manual type pallets for quick change over would be outstanding.

You'd be able to get a few of those for the price of one MAM......albeit it the unmanned benefits wouldn't be there of course.

[Machineguy]

There are only a few UMC750 machines in the midwest. I have'nt heard of any feedback as to how well they perform, or how accurate they are.

Maybe James might know.

That Marsura video dosn't do that machine justice. That machine can move. It was really slowed down for filming.

 

Machineguy

[Joe788]

Something to mention about the Haas and it's accuracy: if your parts are square shapes that are easily probed, you can hold exceptionally tight position tolerances. You just have to probe a lot.

 

If you have compound angles and you just want to hit all the features and have the part come out right the first time - you're going to need a machine that weighs 10,000lbs more and costs $200K more.

[FTI2007]

Here is an example file I happen to be working on today. Assuming the holes are already in it and its bolted down to a fixture plate. Is this to much to ask of a haas to machine accuratley? Only 1 part. This is just 1 of 6 blocks that get bolted together as assembly to hold a plastic part so it can be welded to anouther plastic part. we have no way of checking our parts except measuring the flats/square areas and fitting the plastic part into the assembly. The parts do not always match the data we cut to since plastic odviously changes shape a little after it comes out of a mold and cools. So it is not uncommon to have to recut parts anywhere from .005-.05 larger to get them to fit.

EXAMPLE.MCX-7

[Chipmakr]

We are getting one of these as a loaner from AgieCharmilles because they are running behind on delivery for our new machine. The riggers will be here next Tuesday to set it in place. I let you know how it performs. The one were borrowing has TSC, 12k spindle, glass scales, thermal compensation, and several other nice features. Its a fraction of the cost of the other Mikron offerings so its not going to perform like a machine that's a class or two, or three above it, but for the money I'm interested to see what it will do.

 

http://www.gfac.com/content/dam/gfac/PDF-Documents/Brochures-HEM/HEM_500U_en.pdf

 

http://www.gfac.com/content/gfac/com/en/Products/Milling/HEM/hem--high-efficiency-machining/HEM-500U.html

[MotorCityMinion]

We had a new HSM_400U_LP delivered today. The truck driver arrived early and was in a hurry to get going. He pulled the tarps off the machine before the shop was open. The machine was modified by the dealer for a vacuum system and shipped un-crated, just shrink wrapped and put on skids. It starts raining hard and the shrink wrap can't hold the water. Every nook and cranny, cavity or pocket was filled with water. The replacement machine arrives in December.

[GIZMO 21]

We have 13 haas machines,1 vertical ycm, never notice ycm in magazines before we got it.and 1 mazak variaxis.

1 haas is a vf-2 yt ss with a nikken 5 axis rotary table with the makro grip 77 lang vise,thats the one i work on.

every one is assigned to their own machine.we also do

1to 3 parts. tolerance for bores and locations are fairly tight.and so far every thing we thrown in there came out without a problem.

So the rotary table sits along the y axis on the right side,and on the left side we have a kurt 6" vise to machine the last op.on one of our

Vf-3 mills we had a big haas trunion that sits along the x axis so it used up the whole table,then the owner liked the way the vf-2 yt with the nikken trunion was working,so he got rid of the big &ss hass trunion table and got another nikken for the vf-3, and have 2 6 inch kurt vises on the left side.so if we dont have 3+2 work we still have the vises on the left side.or we can throw it on our lang vise.

 

[FTI2007]

Gizmo, do you have any pics of the setup with the trunion and the kurts. Im having trouble pictureing all that fitting on the table. we have a vf4ss and vf5ss both 40 taper. i would think the trunion would get in the way of the kurts the way Im pictureing it.