Running a horizontal machine

[Bob W.]

I am curious to hear how many people it takes to run a horizontal machine to its potential per shift (machine operator, programmer, etc...). My employee and I run mine and it is hard to get programs ready and constantly feed the beast to keep the spindle turning full time. I do a lot of short run production (50-500 pcs) and the mix is pretty diverse. I am still building repeat jobs for this machine so a lot of time is spent setting up first run jobs. Just seems like we are always behind the machine. I'd love to hear some input on how other shops are setup in this regard.

[K2csq7]

Bob,

 

What exactly takes so long?

Setting zeros?

Setting tools?

Loading fixtures/parts?

 

What is killing you the most?

[gcode]

I do a lot of short run production (50-500 pcs) and the mix is pretty diverse

 

must be nice.. around here 3 parts is considered a production run

[Bill Henderson]

single pallet?

 

we have a dual on the makino and it is running constantly. Mostly short 50 part type runs. tools we try to keep in carousel to negate resetiing everytime.

 

the ec400 is the overflow machine with single pallet.

 

we try to utilize fixturing for the tombstones so most of the setup is done outside of the machining window.

[Thee Dragracer1951]

 

we try to utilize fixturing for the tombstones so most of the setup is done outside of the machining window.

 

This

Tooling is key.

[crazy^millman]

Really comes down to what is your approach to jobs. So many different things to consider. Might be wise to bring in some outside talent and have them honestly evaluate your work flow. I did something did other day I thought was very nice work, customer asked me to do it a different way. I had not looked at doing it that way and seemed like a better approach. We can sometimes get so stuck in our ways we need someone else to point out the things we are not seeing or missing.

[Bob W.]

This is a pallet changing machine and we rarely set zeros in the machine and the machine automatically sets tool lengths. Most of the time is taken by programming and setting up first run jobs since we are still building business around this machine. We are getting better at running repeat jobs through but the biggest hangup there is setting up tooling (putting tools in holders). The fixtures don't take much time to set up and they are all located on the tombstones via pins. When doing critical work with tight tolerances the first article setup is pretty demanding and the process is walked through the machining and wear offsets are dialed for all tools.

[Bob W.]

Bob,

 

What exactly takes so long?

Setting zeros?

Setting tools?

Loading fixtures/parts?

 

What is killing you the most?

 

What is killing me the most is designing processes for the first run of new jobs. This includes fixture design, fabrication, part programming, and first run through the machine. The repeat jobs we pretty much nail but we are always taking on new work and it is hard to keep up in that respect.

[Newbeeee™]

What is killing me the most is designing processes for the first run of new jobs. This includes fixture design, fabrication, part programming, and first run through the machine. The repeat jobs we pretty much nail but we are always taking on new work and it is hard to keep up in that respect.

Bob - when you find the answer to this please let me know!

[crazy^millman]

That is where you have to decide the direction of your company. Do you want to always being new work or do repeat work? New work is demanding and take time to figure out the whole process. Here is a design I did this morning where it was argued I did not understand how to produce this part in two operations. I have gotten crickets for a response after send this to the tooling vendor.

 

 

[Joe788]

There's not really any way to get around it Bob. Are you using Solidworks (or something similar) for your fixture design? One thing we did was standardize on 5x3x29 aluminum flat bar as fixture material for ANY part that would allow it. I have a few different operation libraries for machining the backside of a fixture plate, and a few more libraries for machining particular types of fixture features, like pitbull clamp pockets, uniforce clamp pockets, etc.

 

Once you start building up some more repeat jobs, an MMC would really help - because you can let it run production while you're farting around programming and setting up the next job. Then you switch out of the schedule and work on your new stuff.

 

There was a shop down here in LA awhile back that bought two Mori SH5000s with 26 pallets, and a third SH5000 standalone. They used the machines in the FMS for strictly production, and the standalone machine for strictly first articles and fixture building.

[RaiderX]

Is any of your work similar? as in could use standardized fixturing-tools etc.. am sure this has already crossed your mind but thought I would bring it up.

We use same cutters and fixtures for a large portion of our work in the Hor. it does not always lend itself to the shortest cycle time but over all thru put of the machine is key to us.

large mix- small quantity.

 

I have been known to program a .06 rad cutter to generate a .09 fillet cause it is in the machine. things like that.

[Sticky]

At my shop we have a single spindle 400mm machine attached to a 27 pallet fms. It is run by myself and one other guy. I do the programming, drawing/design, order tools, and machine trouble shooting, the other guy does set ups, loads parts, basic maintenance, coolant and chip control etc. The two of us also manage a small turning cell with robot, a cnc saw, and automated welding machines. Its pretty crazy to keep everything going. Our saving grace is having enough pallets to leave stuff setup, and run as much production at night as possible, and use our day shift to just do first article, inspection, finicky stuff etc. Worst case when we get really backed up we can run production at night. The lathe can have anywhere from 50-500 pcs staged to run un attended as well, and when the saw is chugging on 12-24' bars it can run un attended for a while too, which gives us enough time to maintain everything and work on new stuff. But its still tight, and new jobs are the worst because there is always so much other stuff to keep up on its hard to have more then an hour of focused time on anything. But we make do.

 

Previously we mostly just did 500-1000pc sized repeat orders, as we get more organized we are starting to take on more 50-100 pc sized orders in hopes of them leading to repeat orders, even if the qty is that low. To do that type of work we got a couple of Chick double lock style tombstones with the carvable jaws, we have common methods of doing op1's so one is dedicated to doing just that with our own work holding method, the other one is dedicated to op2's. We are making a huge stack of softjaws just so we can do quick turn arounds on small lot jobs. If they end up repeating we will build dedicated fixturing. If not they can be quickly set up again.

 

I think maybe the biggest thing is having as much standardized tooling and processes as possible. We have a 180 tool matrix and see the potential to upgrade to 240 tools in the next year. All my simple processes, like D&T holes, facing, chamfers, high speed pockets etc are saved as templates, and anytime I can I'll just bring in the template associate new geometry and I'm off to the races.

 

There are a million things you can do, I'm still way slower then I'd like but getting better daily.

 

I waste the most time screwing around with offsets in Mastercam then anything else. We're seriously considering switching to Gibbs JUST to use the tombstone management system they have...

[Newbeeee™]

There was a shop down here in LA awhile back that bought two Mori SH5000s with 26 pallets, and a third SH5000 standalone. They used the machines in the FMS for strictly production, and the standalone machine for strictly first articles and fixture building.

How do they get on for AS9100 compliance? Lots of customers state that if tooling changes, or the machine gets moved, or the work is made on another machine, then re fair's are required.

Yes I know it's a load of bollox having to re-do a fair because you've changed a cutter, but with this heavy investment their customer must surely know the set-up/way they are operating?

just curious.

[Sticky]

I should also mention that like Joe we tried to fit anything we can on a 2x5x26" strip, as we have 6 tombstones that will accept these types of plates on 4 sides each.

[Joe788]

How do they get on for AS9100 compliance? Lots of customers state that if tooling changes, or the machine gets moved, or the work is made on another machine, then re fair's are required.

Yes I know it's a load of bollox having to re-do a fair because you've changed a cutter, but with this heavy investment their customer must surely know the set-up/way they are operating?

just curious.

 

I can't speak for them specifically because I don't know the exact details - but my guess is the internal first article is made, inspected, tweaked, made again, inspected again, tweaked again, etc on the standalone. Once they know the process is going to yield a good part, it's moved to it's final resting place in the FMS, where the official first article is run with the push of a button, instead of the arduous task of initial prove out.

[crazy^millman]

Thing about AS-9100 is do what you say say what you do and able able to show anyone you do what you say. AS-9100 does not lock you into certain processes. Customers and locked down work instructions lock you down to certain processes not AS-9100. You are upfront with your customer and give them your documented process and can audit to it, inspect to it and repeat it making good parts most are happy. Yes there are those no matter what you do customers, but I would do it just like that shop. My Cells would always do production and my stand alone would be my one offs and prove outs for the cell systems.

[Bob W.]

Sticky, I can tell by how you run your shop that we think alike (automation, unattended, small crew, etc...). You are just a bit further down the road than I am. Thanks for the input.

 

There was a shop down here in LA awhile back that bought two Mori SH5000s with 26 pallets, and a third SH5000 standalone. They used the machines in the FMS for strictly production, and the standalone machine for strictly first articles and fixture building.

 

Why not include the third machine in the cell with the others? That way it could do both production and prototype seamlessly. When it isn't busy just start sending pallets to it. I love the idea but it will be a while until I can swing another A51nx :-)

[Joe788]

 

 

Why not include the third machine in the cell with the others? That way it could do both production and prototype seamlessly. When it isn't busy just start sending pallets to it. I love the idea but it will be a while until I can swing another A51nx :-)

 

Fear of the RGV going down and knocking out all production capacity. There's another well known place down here that bought the largest LPP (by number of machines and load stations) ever built by Mori Seiki - and they will never do it again. The machines and the system are great, but one tiny hiccup with the RGV, and they have a few million dollars worth of NH-6300s sitting idle.

[brandon b]

 

 

must be nice.. around here 3 parts is considered a production run

☝same here.

[Mick]

Fear of the RGV going down and knocking out all production capacity. There's another well known place down here that bought the largest LPP (by number of machines and load stations) ever built by Mori Seiki - and they will never do it again. The machines and the system are great, but one tiny hiccup with the RGV, and they have a few million dollars worth of NH-6300s sitting idle.

 

LOL, that brings back memories of the Toyoda FMS I used to programme/work on. When that damn RGV decided to throw its toys, there wasn't anything we could do until it was fixed. And it did it quite a lot

 

Great system when it was working though

[gcode]

The machines and the system are great, but one tiny hiccup with the RGV, and they have a few million dollars worth of NH-6300s sitting idle

 

pardon my ignorance ... what is an RGV?

[Joe788]

pardon my ignorance ... what is an RGV?

 

Rail Guided Vehicle. The little robot that shuffles the pallets around.

 

[Sticky]

Fear of the RGV going down and knocking out all production capacity. There's another well known place down here that bought the largest LPP (by number of machines and load stations) ever built by Mori Seiki - and they will never do it again. The machines and the system are great, but one tiny hiccup with the RGV, and they have a few million dollars worth of NH-6300s sitting idle.

 

Yep that is always a concern, particularly with multiple machines. Some large cells have 2 RGV's for this reason, like the attached picture. 6 machines, looks to be about 120 pallets, and 360 tools per machine! The thing I don't understand is how they get away with those tiny coolant tanks. Must be running MQL, air, or just be running parts with really low material removal.

 

I personally think I'll likely stick to 15-30 pallet single spindle configurations, but time will tell. I've only had my RGV go down once in 2 years, due to a servo pack crapping out, it sure would have sucked if I had 2 or 3 spindles shut down instead of just 1.

[GoetzInd]

Holy bananas does that setup look expensive.

 

Mike