Creating surface normals for probing?

[Bob W.]

I plan to add the 'probe angled surface' routine to my post and machine definitions allowing me to approach surfaces in a 3-axis move and probe its location. Is there a way to quickly create geometry (line or axis) that would be normal to the surface that could be used for driving the probing routine? The approach of the probe needs to be normal to the surface to be measured. I believe there is a c-hook for creating geometry for holes, used for 5-axis drilling. Any similar c-hook for surfaces?

 

I currently have several my custom drilling routines and parameters set up to call Renishaw probing routines (probe bore/ boss, XYZ surface, Web/ pocket, etc...). It is really handy. How well does the Renishaw inspection plus software work? How well does the Mastercam integrated version work? I need a CMM but due to space and budget limitations I will be doing the inspection on the machine as a stop gap measure.

[Guest]

I believe that functionality exists in Verisurf IIRC.

[Colin Gilchrist]

Hi Bob,

 

Xform -> Project. Use the "Surface Projection" method with Points. There is a "Points/Lines" option that you can use to create the normal lines.

 

Verisurf has been doing inspection inside of Mastercam for years, and are certainly worth investigating.

 

I haven't used the standalone version of "Productivity Plus" from Renishaw, but the add-on to Mastercam essentially takes all of the functionality and integrates it into the Mastercam programming process. It is really a very sweet setup. You can write logic and operation loops to not only set positions, but update wear offsets as well. So you can cut a bore, probe the feature, adjust the offset based on the remaining material, then re-cut the feature, and re-check it.

 

Enabling probing in your post is incredibly simple. You just need to add a couple pre-defined post block calls and set a couple switches. The Renishaw post (RenMF file) is also easy to configure. CNC Software has some automatic configuration tools that are available for the Resellers to configure these files.

 

That said, it also depends on what your needs really are. For example, I know you can pay Renishaw to develop custom macros for your particular application. Instead of just doing XYZ compensation, it might be possible to do other analysis on the probe data, like doing a "best fit" for high tolerance features. One of the biggest benefits that I see to the Productivity Plus module is that it gets that functionality directly into the Mastercam interface, and it becomes part of the programming process. Sure, you can get a lot of the same output by customizing a 3 or 5 axis drill cycle, but you don't get the same decision making capabilities, like being able to cut a feature, probe, adjust, re-cut, loop until tolerance met, the same way you can with the add-on.

 

Maybe I should do a Webinar on the Probing add-on...

[The Cathedral]

I run the stand-alone Productivity Plus software, and when you pick an angled plane, it automatically knows the normal and plots the approach vector accordingly. You just pick three spots to define the plane and away it goes. I don't know how this works inside the Mcam add-on, but from everything I've seen of it, it is the same program just accessed through the Mcam GUI.

 

If you have Renishaw probes, I *highly* recommend the Productivity Plus software. You'll be able to do things simply that were a pain in the arse to do by hand.

[Jayson Kramer]

Bob here is an old video doing an example of line normal to a surface.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8_9BeL24Og&list=UU8KDcKij1rx3V-DiY1RmyXw

[Bob W.]

Bob here is an old video doing an example of line normal to a surface.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8_9BeL24Og&list=UU8KDcKij1rx3V-DiY1RmyXw

Perfect! That is exactly what I was looking for, thank you.

[cincy k]

 

 

Maybe I should do a Webinar on the Probing add-on...

 

YES Please.

[crazy^millman]

<<<<This was freely edited by me.>>>>>

 

Really not needed Bob Verisurf can handle all of this problem is only a few people on the planet seem to grasp what it takes to make it happen. I hate being one of those people, but I will venture into this topic and will get a lot of evil eye for what I am about to share.

 

Here is my biggest gripe with Productivity plus. There is no interaction with the model the information it is inspecting back to Mastercam. Verisurf can take the probed data from the machine and analyze it back to the model right inside of Mastercam.

 

You all that keep thinking I am a pain in the rear.  I understand the bigger picture, but remember I am the crazy person in the room for some strange reason.

 

Here is my outline from 2011 when I pitched this idea. Hopefully sharing this I will not need to be the only preaching this needed change anymore.

 

Current Method for NC Probing

 

Companies like XXXXX currently use a modified post processor inside of a CAM system.

Use an outside program of a CAM system like Renishaw Productivity+™, PCDMIS® NC, Metrolog and others to make and create the Probing programming.

Create Probing Cycles manually using Macros inside of the machine control or sent with the NC programs. 

Use Conversational controls on some machines to create the probing code and cycle.

Manually collect points and then manually analyze that collected data.

 

Current Problems in NC Probing

Requires someone to be experienced in making probing cycles.

Understanding of  GD & T tolerance information from Blueprints or models and then manually put them the probing Macro.

Know what probing cycle they want to use for features on part

Verify on the machine the probing process will do what they expected.

Not seeing the results in a quick and easy process.

No easy way to report the results back to the model.

No easy way to report information using Excel, or capturing information to a SPC program or even Database.

Easily done for different machines and controls.

Understanding Macro Programs and Variables.

Multiaxis Probing or complex features difficult using current method and software available on the market.

No app for I-Pad, Droid or other devices to see information real time.

 

Current Capabilities of NC Probing

 

Create Fixture Offsets from features or tooling components.

Check Bore and Boss sizes and adjust tool offset to recut bore.

Check for tool ware and adjust tool offsets.

Adjust work offsets as part moves during the Manufacturing process.

Capture limited information to Macro Variables inside of the machine control.

Create text based DPRINT statements of the quality or information collected during the probing process.

Measure using primitive fitting methods and techniques. (Not using Least Squares Math for fitting shapes and features.

Dumb probing cycles not pulling anything information from a model and require adjustments at the machine.

Cycles need information about stylus stored on machine control to make correct calculations about the probe hits.

 

 

Meeting XXXXX's Requirements

 

CNC Software will provide the NC creation side of the process. The process for X6 will be a prototype that will create the NC code needed to generate the probing cycle. The process currently is part automated part manual.

Mastercam Probing process will show the routine through a backplot, Label the Probing Cycle, shows it in the operations manager.

CNC has support for many different machines and controls.

CNC can only put tolerances for the probing cycles in manually.

Verisurf  Software will provide the ability to take the collected data to show the quality of the part manufactured inside of Mastercam.

Verisurf currently analyzes collected data back to models to show the quality of parts. Verisurf can use MBD(Model Based Tolerances) imbedded in the model as the tolerances to show the quality from those tolerances.

Verisurf can show a green/red or pass/fail from that collected data currently.

Verisurf can take collected Data and do a Best Fit of all the information to show overall quality.

Verisurf using Best Fit capabilities allows adjustment of the fixture offset to for adjustment of complex shaped parts, castings, forging, roughing operations and other manufacturing processes required for Manufacturing.

Verisurf can create reports from this collected information in different formats and methods using HTML, Excel, PDF and Database.

Verisurf can control where the information is stored on a network by mapping output paths.

 

Integrating Verisurf and Mastercam Software capabilities.

Verisurf to supply CNC Software with feedback from XXXX where operations are working and where operations need work.

Verisurf to work with CNC software to integrate MBD capabilities into the Probing Process.

Verisurf to help create probing plans from MBD currently supported by Verisurf for PCMM machines.

Verisurf to work with CNC software to make use of the surface probing creation cycles already within the Verisurf X6 software.

CNC Software to provide the NC code for the Probing Cycle using Renishaw Macros for the Integrex Machining Cell for the Prototype implementation.

CNC Software to work on integrating CATIA MBD/FTA capabilities into the probing routines with Moldplus or CNC Software’s CATIA  translator.

CNC Software to oversee changes and give timeline for changes and integrating components into a working solution.

XXXXX to give feedback about acceptance of features, capabilities, meeting of timeline goals and implementation. 

 

Expected Revenues

XXXXXXX $600,000

XXXXX $2,000,000

Automotive $750,000

Aerospace $1,750,000

Job Shops $1,250,000

Medical $2,350,000

Power Generation $1,275,000

Others $4,000,000

 

 

Required Levels of Mastercam

 

 

Mill Level 1 Basic Probing

Mill Level 2 Mid Level Simple Shape Probing

Mill Level 3 Complex Shape Probing and 3+2 Indexing Probing

Mill Level 3 + Multi-axis 5 axis Probing add the prior 3 levels of Probing capabilities included.

 

Machine Probing would support.

 

2-12 Axis Turning/Milling Center

3-5 Axis Milling Centers

2-6 Axis Grinding

3-9 Axis CMM Machines

 

 

Edited September 5, 2014 by Crazy^Millman

[Mick]

Wow

[DUM1]

JUST TO CHIME IN A LITTLE NOTE ,, I NOTICED ON MY HORIZONTAL WC THE PROBING WAS NOT COMPENSATING FOR THE PROBE TIP DIA TANGENT TO THE ANGLED SURFACES I WAS PROBING AND HAD MANUALLY ADJUSTED EACH STRIKE LOCATION FOR THE TRUE STRIKE POSITION , DID ANYONE ELSE SEE THIS HAPPENING OR AM I JUST GOING OFF ON A TANGENT?

[Verisurf - Ernie Husted]

Ron,

 

Lets talk. call me next week.

Maybe we can do something now that we added the new Verisurf Automate module for Mastercam X8.

We can now easily create and post probing paths for in-process part inspection.

 

 

Ernie

[gcode]

We are interested in in process-probing of spline contours on big VTL's

I sent some data off to our local dealer and after a month of crickets,

management decided to go with Reinishaw. After getting an eye-pooping quote, the project has been

lingering on the back burner.

[Bob W.]

JUST TO CHIME IN A LITTLE NOTE ,, I NOTICED ON MY HORIZONTAL WC THE PROBING WAS NOT COMPENSATING FOR THE PROBE TIP DIA TANGENT TO THE ANGLED SURFACES I WAS PROBING AND HAD MANUALLY ADJUSTED EACH STRIKE LOCATION FOR THE TRUE STRIKE POSITION , DID ANYONE ELSE SEE THIS HAPPENING OR AM I JUST GOING OFF ON A TANGENT?

I haven't played with this yet but I do remember seeing an input for the Renishaw macro that would comp for the tip diameter. It was in the manual and it would appear in the vector surface probe macro call. For example:

 

G65 P9521 X1. Y1.5 Z1.25 C2

 

The C2 comps for the tip geometry (I think). Like I said, I haven't confirmed any of this yet.

[crazy^millman]

JUST TO CHIME IN A LITTLE NOTE ,, I NOTICED ON MY HORIZONTAL WC THE PROBING WAS NOT COMPENSATING FOR THE PROBE TIP DIA TANGENT TO THE ANGLED SURFACES I WAS PROBING AND HAD MANUALLY ADJUSTED EACH STRIKE LOCATION FOR THE TRUE STRIKE POSITION , DID ANYONE ELSE SEE THIS HAPPENING OR AM I JUST GOING OFF ON A TANGENT?

 

 

That is where Verisurf shines. It gives you the ability to define a Master ball on the machine or use features to define the probe. Once it is defined it can take anything from the machine and give you real time deviations.

 

Ernie be glad to rehash this conversation and show the Mastercam community where Verisurf has the grasp, control and understanding to provide them with the World class product. I am still glad to be a part of Verisurf as a Manufacturing Specialist.

 

Gcode you guys already have Verisurf and with the new Automate should be able to really bridge the Process gap to bring the Technology and People together.

 

Bob like I talked about before this missing parts of the equations are all there, just need some direction to see how it will all work.