5 axis help using a trunnion

[Jeff2005]

SORRY, Wrong question.  

How do I set the Machine Component Manager settings properly, based on how the machine parameter settings are in mastercam.[ (Machine Definition Manager) area.] I know these can be changed easily and totally change the way the program is posted out.  From my program when Greg Williams sent me the program and the mastercam file I looked at his code versus my code and it totally changed it 

My apologies for the confusion.

 

Thanks

[crazy^millman]

30 minutes ago, Jeff2005 said:

SORRY, Wrong question.  

How do I set the Machine Component Manager settings properly, based on how the machine parameter settings are in mastercam.[ (Machine Definition Manager) area.] I know these can be changed easily and totally change the way the program is posted out.  From my program when Greg Williams sent me the program and the mastercam file I looked at his code versus my code and it totally changed it 

My apologies for the confusion.

 

Thanks

Okay if he sent you a .zip file then you can see his config file in Cimco and do a file compare. Sorry this will only work for the Mastercam session. You need to closely look over the Machine and Control definition and see what the differences are.

I spent 6 months off and on helping a customer with a certain piece of equipment getting all of this sorted. They have 80% of the US machines sold to date of this certain piece of equipment. Now they are finally after 5 years using them the way they should have from the very beginning. They just purchased 2 of the same machines and they are doing a good job for what the customer needs. 

[Jeff2005]

I do not have a file, to compare to mine.  Combing over the MD and CD now, but if I don't know what is correct or not correct, this won't help.

I am certain it is something simple. Pin pointing what and where seems difficult.

Thanks

[crazy^millman]

17 minutes ago, Jeff2005 said:

I do not have a file, to compare to mine.  Combing over the MD and CD now, but if I don't know what is correct or not correct, this won't help.

I am certain it is something simple. Pin pointing what and where seems difficult.

Thanks

Why I was onsite off and on with one customer for 6 months. I know what I know from doing this for 30 years. I am the answer person for some of the MTB, Software companies and others when it comes to 5 axis questions. This is one of these you must be in front of the machine and cutting some test stuff to sort out. Taking a production part and trying to solve all of this is just asking for trouble. No we have 12-20 week back log right now with 10 companies asking to be scheduled then so I cannot help, but you should be able to get the right person to come in and help you solve this once and for all.

[gcode]

I always start simple, with drilling toolpaths

On a machine like this, it's not hard to look at the code and see if it's right

I screw with the post and machine def, till simple 3+2 drill paths post and run right...

then move on to the hard stuff

[Jeff2005]

1 hour ago, C^Millman said:

Why I was onsite off and on with one customer for 6 months. I know what I know from doing this for 30 years. I am the answer person for some of the MTB, Software companies and others when it comes to 5 axis questions. This is one of these you must be in front of the machine and cutting some test stuff to sort out. Taking a production part and trying to solve all of this is just asking for trouble. No we have 12-20 week back log right now with 10 companies asking to be scheduled then so I cannot help, but you should be able to get the right person to come in and help you solve this once and for all.

ok i don't disagree with you.  however we have been around the world trying to find someone to take care of this issue.  I had one of our guys start on it and he got so frustrated with our reseller he dropped it in my lap.  I have been working on and off with it since feburary.  First I started with the machine, it was not a typical machine setup for the machine company.  They had to install the trunnion on site.  I then found the firmware had not been updated and it was making the trunnion run half its speed.  we took care of that.  Then i went round and round with the mastercam reseller, till I got so aggravated i just told them to not worry about helping us.  So, here I am and still can't get it fixed.  I am getting some support here on emastercam, but like you are saying, you have to be in front of the machine to know what it is doing right or wrong.

FYI we had the machine installed over a year ago.  Still not able to fully use the trunnion, we have been able to use 3+2.  

I have just today been able to get the program to closely resemble the simulator.   It still has issues that would cause it to crash.

 

thanks,

[gcode]

4 minutes ago, Jeff2005 said:

I have just today been able to get the program to closely resemble the simulator.   It still has issues that would cause it to crash.

personally, I would get the post to output code that ran properly on the machine, then work on the simulator.

 

[Jeff2005]

Just now, gcode said:

personally, I would get the post to output code that ran properly on the machine, then work on the simulator.

 

Yes sir I totally am doing that.  I had to have a starting point.  It was not even close before.  Because the trunnion is sitting in the machine 90deg off from where we program. seems very difficult to wrap my head around the process.

[Colin Gilchrist]

Hi Jeff,

This process isn't difficult, unless you have no prior experience doing it, and then it becomes a nightmare (right?).

I'd be happy to help you get this setup and working correctly. It seems like you are just about there, but lacking some key details.

So that I can help you do this properly, please do the following:

1. Take some pictures of the machine setup, preferably from a couple different angles. Make sure the machine is at the Home Position in XYZ, and the rotaries are zeroed.
2. Mark the XYZ Axes on the drawing, indicating the +- directions of travel. Also, note the travel limits for each axis, in "Machine Coordinates". Typically, most machines moved "negative" from the home position. So the machine will have a Positive Travel Limit of 0.0, for example, and the X limit might be "-60.0 Inches".
3. Do the same thing for both rotary axes. Mark the Axis of Rotation (draw a line showing how the machine rotates). Include the Positive and Negative rotary travel limits. Also, mark down what the Address Letters are. For example, the Trunnion might be A and C axes, but you've got the "A" axis, aligned with the Y axis of the machine. That is a "non-standard" configuration, but easily handled in the Post.

Once we get that far, I can help you to figure out how the Trunnion is a programmed.

For a 5 Axis Part, you must program with the WCS of Mastercam, at the intersection point of the Rotary Axes. This is usually not the top of the C-Axis platter.

Putting all of these details together can be a nightmare, if you aren't familiar with the following:

1. The kinematics of your machine -> This is "how is the machine bolted together?", what axes are bolted onto what other axes?
2. The Rotary Axis Zero Points and Positive Rotation Directions.
3. Axis Offsets -> What is the offset between the centerline of the Secondary Rotary Axis, and the Primary Rotary Axis (platter).
4. What are the rotary travel limits, and interference points on the machine?

For what it's worth, I just started teaching another session of my 5 Axis Post Processing course, and we are going through this actual scenario right now.

We just finished configuring a 5 Axis Gantry Post. There is still time to sign up for the course. Next week we will be building a Table/Table (Trunnion Post). If you sign up, I will use your Machine/Post as a sample, and build your custom Post, as a class project. So not only would you learn how all this stuff works, but at the end of class you'd have a Post for your machine that actually works. That would be the cheapest 5 Axis Post in history, since you'd get the Post for the cost of taking the course. (And we'd finish your Post, in class, next week!)

You can send me a Private Message with any questions.

Thanks,

Colin

 

[crazy^millman]

13 minutes ago, Jeff2005 said:

Yes sir I totally am doing that.  I had to have a starting point.  It was not even close before.  Because the trunnion is sitting in the machine 90deg off from where we program. seems very difficult to wrap my head around the process.

I promise once it is all said and done you will be a top programmer and 5 Axis Machinist for having have to go through this much work. I have done this off an on for the past 20+ years doing exactly what you are doing. Problem solving and getting the answers seems to be an art all onto itself. Amazing to me how many times I solve a problem in seconds or minutes that others have fought with for sometimes years. Please take that as humbly as I can say it because I don't consider me all that different than anyone else.

My wife saved and saved for a new Curio Cabinet. 1st one shows up the door is upside down so we send it back. 2nd one shows up the last one they have for 3 months and they forgot all the shelves and hardware to mount the shelves. The company and the driver are talking for a good 10 minutes about what to do since it will be a month before replacements can be delivered. My 2 daughters are standing there and I ask them why can't they just get the ones from the other one and give us them? My daughters just laughed with what the did and said. You thought I just saved the world from all of their reactions.

Point is keep at it and I promise you will reap the rewards of your hard work and effort. Sorry I wish I could hope on a plane and spend a day at your shop. I think we could have it done and taken care of real quick.

[gcode]

18 minutes ago, Jeff2005 said:

Because the trunnion is sitting in the machine 90deg off from where we program. seems very difficult to wrap my head around the process.

So the truinion's axis of rotation is parallel to the Y axis ????

regardless of how the machine is set up, Mastercam toolpaths should be done in Top WCS

and you should draw your files like they would look if you were standing at the machine.

The post should handle the unorthodox 90 degree  orientation of the y axis.

If I've understood all this correctly the trunion has been added to an existing 3X vertical mill

If you are successfully posting 3+2, but unable to do simulateous 5X, my first guess is that

the feed rates of all 5 axis are not properly sync'd to each other,

We have a half dozen HBM's here that we have added rotary tables to

We do all sorts of complex 3+2 work, but true 5X toolpaths are not possible because

we cannot properly sync the feed rates of all 5 axis  

 

[crazy^millman]

14 minutes ago, gcode said:

So the truinion's axis of rotation is parallel to the Y axis ????

regardless of how the machine is set up, Mastercam toolpaths should be done in Top WCS

and you should draw your files like they would look if you were standing at the machine.

The post should handle the unorthodox 90 degree  orientation of the y axis.

If I've understood all this correctly the trunion has been added to an existing 3X vertical mill

If you are successfully posting 3+2, but unable to do simulateous 5X, my first guess is that

the feed rates of all 5 axis are not properly sync'd to each other,

We have a half dozen HBM's here that we have added rotary tables to

We do all sorts of complex 3+2 work, but true 5X toolpaths are not possible because

we cannot properly sync the feed rates of all 5 axis  

 

My thoughts align with yours. They installed the machine have them put a sample part on the with whatever software they want. If they can't get it to work with their flavor of software then no software might be capable of making it happen. Has the builder been able to cut a sample part for you with no issue? Sorry I may have missed you already answered that.

[Jeff2005]

5 minutes ago, C^Millman said:

My thoughts align with yours. They installed the machine have them put a sample part on the with whatever software they want. If they can't get it to work with their flavor of software then no software might be capable of making it happen. Has the builder been able to cut a sample part for you with no issue? Sorry I may have missed you already answered that.

We have cut parts on the trunnion just NOT 5 axis.    We have only run samples of 5 axis programs that seem to work.  Perhaps I didn't see anything out of the ordinary and thought all was OK and didn't check anything further.  I am going to do the HOMEWORK Colin has given me, and we'll keep trying things that will or won't work.

 

36 minutes ago, gcode said:

If you are successfully posting 3+2, but unable to do simulateous 5X, my first guess is that

the feed rates of all 5 axis are not properly sync'd to each other,

I think this was the problem, before the firmware was updated on the machine.  We may have parameters wrong at the machine. I am just not sure.  I just need a checklist and go from that point.

Thanks,

[gcode]

can you post a picture of the machine ... showing the table spindle and trunion

[crazy^millman]

43 minutes ago, Jeff2005 said:

We have cut parts on the trunnion just NOT 5 axis.    We have only run samples of 5 axis programs that seem to work.  Perhaps I didn't see anything out of the ordinary and thought all was OK and didn't check anything further.  I am going to do the HOMEWORK Colin has given me, and we'll keep trying things that will or won't work.

 

I think this was the problem, before the firmware was updated on the machine.  We may have parameters wrong at the machine. I am just not sure.  I just need a checklist and go from that point.

Thanks,

Problem is no one really has a check list. Most times is a tribal knowledge kind of thing or a lot of trail and error.  Trust me I learned about Fanuc Parameters and setting that I ever cared too fixing the last issue I ran into ,but know I could help anyone with that issue on a Fanuc a lot faster than before.

[Jeff2005]

I am standing at the front of the machine. all axis are at machine zero.   Y is all the way to the front. Y moving to the back is negative move.  X moving to the left is a negative move.  The trunnion plate is the C axis rotary.  The A axis is the cradle.  The A axis limits at -110 and +30, negative is to the left.  C axis limits eventually at +9720, and -9720.   C negative rotates in CCW.

hope this helps

[Jeff2005]

Colin i can't message you.  Not sure why.  It is saying you can't receive messages.

[email protected] is my email i can be reached at.

thanks,

[gcode]

5 minutes ago, Jeff2005 said:

Colin i can't message you.  Not sure why.  It is saying you can't receive messages.

[email protected] is my email i can be reached at.

thanks,

odds are his message box is full

[So not a Guru]

Y-axis mounted to the machine frame, X-axis mounted to the Y-axis & Trunnion mounted to the X-axis?

 

[gcode]

Jeff,

Over the weekend I will download your drop box file,  compare it to this photo and see if I can find something wrong

 

[Jeff2005]

15 minutes ago, So not a Guru said:

Y-axis mounted to the machine frame, X-axis mounted to the Y-axis & Trunnion mounted to the X-axis?

 

I believe that is correct.

12 minutes ago, gcode said:

Jeff,

Over the weekend I will download your drop box file,  compare it to this photo and see if I can find something wrong

 

Ok, I sure do appreciate any help that any one can give me.

 

thanks.

[Watcher]

5 minutes ago, Jeff2005 said:

I believe that is correct.

Ok, I sure do appreciate any help that any one can give me.

 

thanks.

In the mean time, invest 500 bucks on Colin's post class. Everyday this machine is not using its 5 axis capabilites is far more money your company is burning. 

This course will bring light to the darkness you live now. 

[Jeff2005]

I am thinking about it.  I will need to talk with my boss.  

Colin, when is the drop dead latest I can sign up?

[huskermcdoogle]

1 hour ago, Jeff2005 said:

Colin, when is the drop dead latest I can sign up?

I am guessing not as he has offered it after the first 1/4 of class has already taken place.

[Greg Williams]

Jeff,

we need to know which way the rotaries are setup