New machine incoming,.. now looking at toolholding

[Kyle F]

Hello everyone, looking to pick a few brains if at all possible.

I suppose I've been a good boy this year, Santa will be bringing me a shiny new Matsuura MAM72 52v with 15k grease spindle and 330ATC. This is quite the upgrade from the machine I currently program for/set-up/run, (Haas UMC-500 w/ 10k spindle) so as you can imagine I am quite excited. We are currently in the process of getting quotes for the foundation work (5ft deep, isolated in foam, all the good stuff) If anyone has any tips or tricks on that as well, I'd love to pass on any extra info to the boss man. A machine of this caliber is a new endeavor for everyone at my shop.

I have been tasked with putting together a list of some toolholding, seeing as the machine will be our only BT40 spindle. (EDIT: after re-reading paperwork left with me I see it's a CAT40 spindle!)  After a short chat with the owner here are a few key pieces of info:

I work in a small job shop and my work ranges anywhere from part sizes of around 1-2" to 30", and quantities of 5-10 to (rarely) thousands. One of the big benefits of this machine will be lights out running higher quantity jobs on tombstones. Decent variety of industries from aerospace to medical, semiconductor, lil bit of oil, basically whatever's clever.

We run a lot of aluminum, stainless, and a growing amount of inconel/hastaloy/titanium. a lot of +/-.005 with some random tight tolerances and true positions thrown in there. I work in mostly 3+2 and rarely need to do any crazy toolpaths or surfacing.

Going to get decent amount of standard 2-3" + 4-6" projection ER32+ER16 holders of course, as well as 2-3" and 4-6" projection endmill holders, the typical basics.

Also a shell mill or two, would be great to have one with a decent extension on it for some hard to reach areas.

We do not currently have heatshrink holders in my shop, and that's something we will eventually do but not yet at this time.  If heat shrink is a huge game changer maybe I could persuade him lol.

We also do not have any tool balancing setup,.. most our mills max out at 8k and my UMC at 10k we didn't feel the need for balancing but from what I recall reading around 12k+ we should be looking into it to preserve spindle/tool life? Haven't had a chat about balancing with the owner yet but I now think I should.

I use a lot of cheap techniks holders on the UMC and for $100-150 a holder of course it's great for what it is. my .0002 spindle runout ends up at about .0005-.008 runout inside of the 4" projection er16 but for drilling a +/- .005 hole I'm all good with that. I know price goes up real quick with nicer toolholding but seeing as I came up running haas 3axis mills I have 0 experience with Haimer/schunk and the likes. 

Now that I'll be running a machine that somewhat calls for that type of quality, what can I expect and how can I properly convey this to my boss to justify the purchase? Obviously he is open to spending some real $$ but I am trying to soften the blow as much as I can lol.

I am thinking of getting a majority of "economy"-esque holders for now to run at maybe 70% spindle capacity max and (this is where I'm hoping y'all will come in handy!) I'd love to get a few random select handy holders.

Essentially this super long-winded post comes down to this: any tool holders that have proven to be a staple in your programming? or any BT40 specific companies I should be looking into other than a typical MSC search? 

I come from what I think is a weird background, I have been machining now for 10+ years and I am still at the same shop I started at. came in not even knowing what a mic was and now I guess on paper I'm somewhat of a manufacturing engineer (or I tell myself that to feel better hahaha)

You all have been such a huge help to me lately so I couldn't pass up the opportunity to bug you once again. Thanks in advance for any input and honestly just for sticking around if you're still reading this. I appreciate y'all.

 

-kyle

[Leon82]

Haimer makes holders as well as lyndex. We use haimer shrink and their er collet holders. We have a few lyndex slim chuck and dream holders also.  Command also but they don't make their 3" er11 holders in bt40 anymore 

[gcode]

Big Daishowa  builds world class tool holders.

Once you figure it out this interactive cataloge is very easy use and find holders with.

You'll need to sign up for an account to download tool holder models

Haimer makes really nice tool holders as well, but they are gold plated and sprinkled in diamond dust.

[Aaron Eberhard]

I'll make the argument that you should check out shrink fit right now.  It's the right time now that you're stepping up to a real machine.  It solves so many problems that come from using collets, single points/weldons, etc such as runout, vibration, damping, rigidity, and on and on.  Another good choice is the chuck system, like a RegoFix.   I think Iscar calls theirs the CamFix?  Any of these modern solutions are so much more rigid that an ER Collet system, you're really doing yourself a disservice by not having one.

I don't know how they are for availability down in TX, but up here a lot of people use MST tool holders (https://www.mst-corp.co.jp/en/).  I know they're decently cheaper than Haimer (as GCode said, that's not exactly hard to do...), but they're also really modular.  You can mix and match holders, extensions, etc.    They are all shrink, though, so you'll be in for the cost of a shrink setup.

Speaking of, I know a lot of people I know have gotten good value from the Haas shrink setup, btw..  I think it's $7k all in or something?

Agreed with Gcode that Big Daishowa (previously Big Kaiser) is always a correct choice.

Also, don't forget that when you buy a new machine, the big tooling companies (Sandvik, Kennametal, Iscar, etc.) will throw you a massive discount based on a % of the cost of the machine.  All of them offer great tool holders, at least for the "normal" stuff, so take advantage of that. 

Other considerations as you evaluate these, make sure you're getting the holders setup for thru-tool coolant, so you don't have to hunt around for that later.

----------

I love MAMs.  They're great!   One thing to make sure of right now is that you're getting it setup to do simultaneous multiaxis work (DWO/TCP/TCPC/WSEC, etc.).  As soon as you realize how useful it really is you'll find yourself using it a lot more and you don't want to hamstring yourself right out of the gate by not getting those options unlocked.

If you ever need a hand programming that sort of thing, don't hesitate to reach out!

[rgrin]

Is it a Big Plus spindle? If so I would prefer to only tool up with Big Plus compatible tooling.  It just reduces the off chance of you using a non Big Plus Holder and a chip getting in between the face contact point when you go back to a Big Plus Holder.

Otherwise +1 on the shrink fit.  I have found that I typically get better runout with a Haimer shrink fit than I do with a PG10. I was using a Fraisa Sphero-x ball mill and in the PG10 I saw about .0001" runout on the flutes and when I switched to a shrink I got closer to half that. Every bit can help. Plus you can typically get 2 Haimer Shrink fits for the price of a PG10 holder and collet.

For me, Big Kaiser is typically double everyone else's prices. But I love their milling chucks and hydraulic holders.

I run in my Yasda Haimer shrink fit for all my standard tooling that stays in the machine and use PG holders for the random jobs that get thrown my way. I ruse Rego Fix Er holders for odd ball taps and drills as needed.  I wish I went with the longer length Er16 holders instead of a mix and match as I find that I typically don't need a stubby ER holder...

[Kyle F]

8 hours ago, Aaron Eberhard said:

I'll make the argument that you should check out shrink fit right now.  It's the right time now that you're stepping up to a real machine.  It solves so many problems that come from using collets, single points/weldons, etc such as runout, vibration, damping, rigidity, and on and on.  Another good choice is the chuck system, like a RegoFix.   I think Iscar calls theirs the CamFix?  Any of these modern solutions are so much more rigid that an ER Collet system, you're really doing yourself a disservice by not having one.

I'll definitely be showing him this post, thank you for all the great points.

 

8 hours ago, Aaron Eberhard said:

Also, don't forget that when you buy a new machine, the big tooling companies (Sandvik, Kennametal, Iscar, etc.) will throw you a massive discount based on a % of the cost of the machine.  All of them offer great tool holders, at least for the "normal" stuff, so take advantage of that. 

Other considerations as you evaluate these, make sure you're getting the holders setup for thru-tool coolant, so you don't have to hunt around for that later.

yes, this was the main reason why I am being tasked to do this. Boss man said he'd like to be somewhat "aggressive" going after a deal so we'll see how it all plays out.

8 hours ago, Aaron Eberhard said:

I love MAMs.  They're great!   One thing to make sure of right now is that you're getting it setup to do simultaneous multiaxis work (DWO/TCP/TCPC/WSEC, etc.).  As soon as you realize how useful it really is you'll find yourself using it a lot more and you don't want to hamstring yourself right out of the gate by not getting those options unlocked.

Yes sir! I'm currently looking at the packet with the specific machine info (serial # and all that) and it will be coming with fanuc MMU value package, with tool life management and offset pairing, as well as the high speed/high precision and 5axis package, with TCPC, nano smoothing, and those bells and whistles. Once I got the Haas and learned 5 axis with DWO + TCPC I feel as though now it's damn near a necessity.

I'm hoping for no crazy surprises!! doing my best at least haha

 

8 hours ago, Aaron Eberhard said:

you ever need a hand programming that sort of thing, don't hesitate to reach out!

You'll most certainly be on the list when/if the time comes

[JParis]

Programming for a current pool of 27 HMC's.....some thoughts.

With a 15k spindle, balancing is not required....once you break the 20k, different ballgame.

Do not cheap out on holders, the really play an integral part in your process  We use Lyndex for about 85% of our shrink fit holders, Techniks of ER for the most part. I will call a Techniks Slimfit or slimline when appropriate. 15k and a sidelocker will work but don't be surprised with some vibration....

Work holding....when I started here in 2015 every single solitary tombstone was an assembled aluminum tombstone...they had a standard pattern that each tombstone got for mounting plates. Don't get me wrong, when they started with HMC's they had no one "in house" that was really versed in getting them going and they started and propagated what a local "job shop" was using to do some of the work they farmed out to them.....it got them started and it made a great many parts. It needed though to evolve.

All we use now are cast iron tombstones, the resultant difference on a single part, one aluminum tombstone and one cast iron tombstone, then some simple math cemented the move to cast iron...I worked on and created a single mounting pattern that works on our Hexagon, Square and Plus shaped tombstones. We also can mount and of the 52mm 5th Axis RockLocks we use to the same tombstones.

I will say the largest majority of what we put out now goes out on the "Plus" shaped stones because of the clearance it allows us to work closer on the sides of parts, thus reducing the need for extended length holders.   

Work on standardizing as much as you can now....you will be surprised at how fast you can fill up your tool carousel.

Make a standard tool set, with standard length out of holders and use those tool as much as possible....

I am certain I have missed at least a few things here....

Nevermind me this morning, 5 axis machine RIF...it's Monday, it's too damn early and I haven't had enough coffee yet.

[Kyle F]

12 minutes ago, rgrin said:

Is it a Big Plus spindle? If so I would prefer to only tool up with Big Plus compatible tooling.  It just reduces the off chance of you using a non Big Plus Holder and a chip getting in between the face contact point when you go back to a Big Plus Holder.

wow, after re-reading the paperwork left with me, I see now that under spindle, it states: "15,000 rpm high-speed cat #40 grease spindle"

so it seems as though I was mistaken on the BT40. 

( We did not spec this machine out, it was already built and just fit the bill for us. )

 

15 minutes ago, rgrin said:

Otherwise +1 on the shrink fit.  I have found that I typically get better runout with a Haimer shrink fit than I do with a PG10. I was using a Fraisa Sphero-x ball mill and in the PG10 I saw about .0001" runout on the flutes and when I switched to a shrink I got closer to half that. Every bit can help. Plus you can typically get 2 Haimer Shrink fits for the price of a PG10 holder and collet.

For me, Big Kaiser is typically double everyone else's prices. But I love their milling chucks and hydraulic holders.

I run in my Yasda Haimer shrink fit for all my standard tooling that stays in the machine and use PG holders for the random jobs that get thrown my way. I ruse Rego Fix Er holders for odd ball taps and drills as needed.  I wish I went with the longer length Er16 holders instead of a mix and match as I find that I typically don't need a stubby ER holder...

thank you for the great info, I'll be looking more into this.

I was also thinking it may be worthy to have a small selection of hydraulic holders with something like the schunk polygonal extensions for adjustable projection lengths. Definitely agree on the ER holders I tend to always go for 4+" projection and really rarely grab a 2" cause if I'm looking for rigidity ER16 is the last place I'd go haha

[Aaron Eberhard]

43 minutes ago, Kyle F said:

I'll definitely be showing him this post, thank you for all the great points.

 

yes, this was the main reason why I am being tasked to do this. Boss man said he'd like to be somewhat "aggressive" going after a deal so we'll see how it all plays out.

Yes sir! I'm currently looking at the packet with the specific machine info (serial # and all that) and it will be coming with fanuc MMU value package, with tool life management and offset pairing, as well as the high speed/high precision and 5axis package, with TCPC, nano smoothing, and those bells and whistles. Once I got the Haas and learned 5 axis with DWO + TCPC I feel as though now it's damn near a necessity.

I'm hoping for no crazy surprises!! doing my best at least haha

 

You'll most certainly be on the list when/if the time comes

Excellent!  Sounds like you'll be well prepared for success with this package! 

Glad to hear it's all specc'd out with all the goodies.  I was just helping an Okuma customer that bought their machine a few years ago and "they only do 3+2."  Until they didn't... Then we got to go through all the gyrations and learning curve teaching their guy how to do things old school without TCPC and such

[Jake L]

17 hours ago, Kyle F said:

Santa will be bringing me a shiny new Matsuura MAM72 52v

control?

17 hours ago, Kyle F said:

Essentially this super long-winded post comes down to this: any tool holders that have proven to be a staple in your programming?

We have mostly CAT50 and BT40 here. 85% of our holders are Techniks ER collet. We also have some Nikken mill chucks, and Haimer shrink fit.

[Kyle F]

1 hour ago, JParis said:

With a 15k spindle, balancing is not required....once you break the 20k, different ballgame.

Do not cheap out on holders, the really play an integral part in your process  We use Lyndex for about 85% of our shrink fit holders, Techniks of ER for the most part. I will call a Techniks Slimfit or slimline when appropriate. 15k and a sidelocker will work but don't be surprised with some vibration....

noted, thank you, great info in your post. and no worries on the lack of coffee haha.

 

41 minutes ago, Aaron Eberhard said:

Excellent!  Sounds like you'll be well prepared for success with this package! 

Glad to hear it's all specc'd out with all the goodies.  I was just helping an Okuma customer that bought their machine a few years ago and "they only do 3+2."  Until they didn't... Then we got to go through all the gyrations and learning curve teaching their guy how to do things old school without TCPC and such

yeah that seems near-criminal to have to jump through those hoops in this day and age.

 

30 minutes ago, Jake L said:

control?

We have mostly CAT50 and BT40 here. 85% of our holders are Techniks ER collet. We also have some Nikken mill chucks, and Haimer shrink fit.

31iB control

I use a ton of techniks hardholders + er16/32 in cat40 so I'm sure I'll be scooping some more to add to the arsenal.

I am almost a little sad the spindle won't be BT40,... was looking forward to having matsuura specific toolholders but I guess I can share with some of my coworkers now LOL

[Aaron Eberhard]

8 minutes ago, Kyle F said:

I am almost a little sad the spindle won't be BT40,... was looking forward to having matsuura specific toolholders but I guess I can share with some of my coworkers now LOL

Now's a good time to really plan out your common holders and order multiples so every machine in the shop gets to benefit from it.  I.e., Tool #123 is always a ø.75 4FL .015R Endmill with .75 LOC and 1.25" stickout.   Make that standard in the shop.  Try to make it so every job can be programmed 75% from the standard library.

[Jake L]

33 minutes ago, Kyle F said:

I am almost a little sad the spindle won't be BT40

This might be dumb but I'll put it out there anyway. If I recall correctly a few years ago when we got our Quaser MV184 the first time we went to tool change it alarmed out. The guy helping with the install changed the "hands" on the ATC and the issue was fixed. I believe he said the machine could run CAT40 or BT40 by just changing the ATC "hands". 

Possible this is the case with your machine too? Again, I could be way off here.

[Kyle F]

1 hour ago, Aaron Eberhard said:

Now's a good time to really plan out your common holders and order multiples so every machine in the shop gets to benefit from it.  I.e., Tool #123 is always a ø.75 4FL .015R Endmill with .75 LOC and 1.25" stickout.   Make that standard in the shop.  Try to make it so every job can be programmed 75% from the standard library.

I definitely can see the benefit from that. Although 90% of our mills are haas vf2's with 20tool capacity. But now I could theoretically standardize the first 30 or so tools (leaving me 20 free spots for the UMC) without any issue between that and the MAM. 

35 minutes ago, Jake L said:

This might be dumb but I'll put it out there anyway. If I recall correctly a few years ago when we got our Quaser MV184 the first time we went to tool change it alarmed out. The guy helping with the install changed the "hands" on the ATC and the issue was fixed. I believe he said the machine could run CAT40 or BT40 by just changing the ATC "hands". 

Possible this is the case with your machine too? Again, I could be way off here.

I could see that being the case, but I too am unsure. Maybe just swap those hands + pullstuds and maybe they can be interchangeable. 

here is what is listed on the paperwork I have:

 

[rgrin]

You definitely need to  get on the horn with your MTB seller to figure out if it is a Big Plus spindle or not.  I was under the impression that Matsuura had switched to only selling Big Plus but I can't even find mention of Big Plus on their online documents. 

Whether it is or not wouldn't change my answer too much.  Could just save a few bucks by not spending the money for Big Plus holders if the machine isn't capable of fully utilizing them.

[Leon82]

2 hours ago, Jake L said:

This might be dumb but I'll put it out there anyway. If I recall correctly a few years ago when we got our Quaser MV184 the first time we went to tool change it alarmed out. The guy helping with the install changed the "hands" on the ATC and the issue was fixed. I believe he said the machine could run CAT40 or BT40 by just changing the ATC "hands". 

Possible this is the case with your machine too? Again, I could be way off here.

Yes it's just the fingers on matsuura

[MIL-TFP-41]

Regard the CAT40 & BT40, on that machine with the tool matrix, it does make a difference. The BT racks are different from the CAT racks. If it was a chain style all that would be different would be the claws or fingers on the tool change arm.  I have priced out changing the matrix racks from CAT to BT...and the price per rack is steep. That being said, on a new machine, Matsuura has always changed them out for us at no charge. (Note, we are primarily a BT shop & have picked up a few used CAT Matsuura's over the years. Every time I price out changing over a matrix from CAT to BT, the sticker shock stops me)

As far as holders, see above about getting a voucher from Kennametal. Theirs is by far the easiest to get and use. ER holders and "standard" stuff from them are a very good deal with the voucher. And seriously look into heat shrink. Once again, with the Kennametal stuff, the heat shrink are very reasonable. For the shrinking unit, look at the Haas offering (or Mari-Tool). A very economical way to get your feet wet.

I am a fan of Lyndex SK collets for more picky stuff. Pioneer also has them (they call it an SX collet, they are the same thing)

[Aaron Eberhard]

1 hour ago, Leon82 said:

Yes it's just the fingers on matsuura

The only other differences I know of is a BT needs a longer pull stud than a CAT (it's something like 4mm shorter?), also, technically a CAT can have offset dogs (so that you can only input a tool one way, although I don't think anyone has been doing that for the last 20 years, though...  But if so, you'll need another dog.

 

4 hours ago, Kyle F said:

I definitely can see the benefit from that. Although 90% of our mills are haas vf2's with 20tool capacity. But now I could theoretically standardize the first 30 or so tools (leaving me 20 free spots for the UMC) without any issue between that and the MAM.

Yeah, the tools themselves don't have to be stored in the machine. I just mean for programming & production purposes, that tool # is always in X assembly.  Doesn't matter if it's being used in the Haas, a converted bridgeport, or the MAM. 

Eventually, when you get the point that you have a dedicated tool crib/assembly guy, you'll be able to order up a job worth of tools that are already mostly on the shelf.

[gcode]

39 minutes ago, Aaron Eberhard said:

The only other differences I know of is a BT needs a longer pull stud than a CAT

I believe BT pull studs/holders have metric threads, while CAT holders have ISO threads.

That may not be a universal rule, but I've found it to be the case with the BT holders we have here. 

[Aaron Eberhard]

2 minutes ago, gcode said:

I believe BT pull studs/holders have metric threads, while CAT holders have ISO threads.

That may not be a universal rule, but I've found it to be the case with the BT holders we have here. 

Oooh, good call. That's probably true!  I guess I've always just made sure I was ordering BT40/30 vs. CAT40/30 pull studs, so I never quite paid attention to the thread pitch.

[Leon82]

True story one of our matsuuras came in as cat so they shipped us the fingers from a demo machine in Minnesota while they ordered the replacement fingers. 

[Kyle F]

2 hours ago, MIL-TFP-41 said:

 

As far as holders, see above about getting a voucher from Kennametal. Theirs is by far the easiest to get and use. ER holders and "standard" stuff from them are a very good deal with the voucher. And seriously look into heat shrink. Once again, with the Kennametal stuff, the heat shrink are very reasonable. For the shrinking unit, look at the Haas offering (or Mari-Tool). A very economical way to get your feet wet.

I am a fan of Lyndex SK collets for more picky stuff. Pioneer also has them (they call it an SX collet, they are the same thing)

thank you for all this info, and we already do a ton of business with our kennametal rep. Will definitely be looking into this more.

1 hour ago, Aaron Eberhard said:

Yeah, the tools themselves don't have to be stored in the machine. I just mean for programming & production purposes, that tool # is always in X assembly.  Doesn't matter if it's being used in the Haas, a converted bridgeport, or the MAM. 

Eventually, when you get the point that you have a dedicated tool crib/assembly guy, you'll be able to order up a job worth of tools that are already mostly on the shelf.

true, I didn't think about it quite like that 

[#Rekd™]

Reach out to @cncappsjames for any questions on your new machine!!!! 

[Kyle F]

Small update on our progress for those interested:

Heard back from our rep and he told us that Matsuura is planning on all machines sent to the U.S. from here on out to have CAT40 spindles. Obviously I'm assuming you can spec it out BT if you wish but it seems like the standard will be CAT40.  

I am glad I come to the forums for insight, seeing as today we will be purchasing a heat shrink setup! We decided to go with the Haas heat shrink system seeing as they're having a crazy black friday sale. 50% off the shrink machine, as well as 10 free heat shrink holders and on top of that all their heat shrinks (they range from .375 - 1.0) are on sale for 50% off, so each around 80-95 dollars each. 

Haas has .625 shrink fit holders at 76-86 dollars each depending on gage length. Getting a good grip of those with the sale to mix and match with techniks .625 x .125/.1875/.25 x  6.3" extensions. It seems like it will be nice to have adjustability on those from 3.15" almost all the way to the machine max @ 13.77"

I have made a nice list of other desirable shrink fit holders ranging from 3mm-1.0 from techniks and haas with a good mix of both 2-3" projection as well as 5-6". Then a few lyndex-nikken holders in .125-.25 range for those tricky 5axis hard-to-reach areas.

 

Now I'm moving onto shell mills and extensions, Kennametal has some really well priced 2" and 6" gage length shell mill holders and we already have a decent amount of dodeka and other kennametal shell mills in the shop.

For collets I'm thinking ER32 and ER16, will most likely get majority techniks as they've worked well for me so far.

 

[Aaron Eberhard]

Awesome!  You're gonna love it    That's a great update

I know that Titans of CNC has a really good sale on kennametal insert shell mills with inserts right now, you may want to look at grabbing some of those.