OT - Subplates, Grid Plates for Kurt vises, what are you using?

[volitan71]

We don't have room for more mills here, and lately we're having to switch to rush jobs before production jobs are done. Looiks like that won't change soon.

Mostly Kurt vises here, and a bunch of dedicated fixtures.

My idea is to get subplates with a matching grid system in the mills we have, and maybe machine locating holes in the coolant channels of the vises so we can use T-Pins to quickly get vices fixtures on/off without losing fixture offsets etc.

Anyone have a similar setup? What are you using? If so, what issues have you found with your system?

Thanks!

[volitan71]

For starters I'm looking at the 7075 al. version of this

 

https://saundersmachineworks.com/products/haas-vf2-steel-fixture-tooling-plate

[CNC CHRIS]

we use the 5th axis rocklock system.

they even have a kurt vise plate to mount on to the rocklock system.

the kurt vise with the plate is heavy though, so we ended getting the HAAS SHOP ARM, to load/unload anything from the rocklock system. 

[rgrin]

Ball locks is how I like to do it.

Either make a sub plate that has a pattern or even machine them straight into your table. I have seen it done both ways.

Saunders I think still does custom plates as well, so if you have something specific he might be able to accommodate.

He's also coming out with his own zero point quick change system that integrates with his subplates. Might be interesting for you if you use alot of fixtures

[volitan71]

10 minutes ago, rgrin said:

Ball locks is how I like to do it.

Either make a sub plate that has a pattern or even machine them straight into your table. I have seen it done both ways.

Saunders I think still does custom plates as well, so if you have something specific he might be able to accommodate.

He's also coming out with his own zero point quick change system that integrates with his subplates. Might be interesting for you if you use alot of fixtures

 

Just got off the phone with them. the 3 plates I would need they do make, although out of stock right now. 4-6 week lead time which I can deal with.

How do those ball locks work with vices? Are they rigid enough for milling steel in a vice?

[cruzila]

Ball Lock® (jergensinc.com)

[rgrin]

So, funny story.  I basically copied/adapted Saunders plates for my own purposes.  And then I clamp a vise on top of it as needed.

A previous shop I was at, we bored the flanges of the vise to accept the ball lock and just mounted the vise directly to the table that way.

I think Orange Vise uses something similar, but they ball lock in the center of the bed?

Per Jergens catalog, a single 20mm shank ball lock has 3000 lbs of hold down force and you always run 2 or more. So, I would say they are plenty good for 99% of applications.  If you're exceeding 6000 pounds of tool pressure, you're on a much more substantial machine than I am and I pray for your holders lol

[Kalibre]

We've had really good experience with Lang. You can put the studs on almost anything and haven't run into any problems with repeatability between set-up swaps.

https://lang-technovation.com/en

[CEMENTHEAD]

Every new machine we purchase gets it's own steel grid plate made to suit. max overlap of table is a plus. 5/8-11 and Ø.6255 x 2" grid, All our Fixtures fit every machine. The only ones we wont do is our Kuraki's although we did  do the 6 axis KTR 1200.

[volitan71]

3 hours ago, rgrin said:

Ball locks is how I like to do it.

Either make a sub plate that has a pattern or even machine them straight into your table. I have seen it done both ways.

Saunders I think still does custom plates as well, so if you have something specific he might be able to accommodate.

He's also coming out with his own zero point quick change system that integrates with his subplates. Might be interesting for you if you use alot of fixtures

Just talking to another machinist in the company, he suggests putting bushings right in to the table. 

I didn't like the idea at first, spent so many years trying to not drill into a table, but the more I think about it I like it.

[Kyle F]

1 hour ago, volitan71 said:

Just talking to another machinist in the company, he suggests putting bushings right in to the table. 

I didn't like the idea at first, spent so many years trying to not drill into a table, but the more I think about it I like it.

I like it until one of my operators crashes into something and eggs out one of those holes milled into the table 

Personally I would be open to having some locating holes milled directly into tables, but I would much prefer something like a 1" baseplate which locates off of the bushing holes but after you locate and tighten down the subplate, you could remove the bushing/locating pins just to ensure that your precious locating holes don't get fudged up from a crash.. maybe I'm over thinking it lol I tend to do that. 

I just designed a few tombstones for new machines and I did something like 12-20 locating pin holes per face just to "cover all my bases" for future subplate designs, and if someone crashes and messes up a locating hole we can swap to an unmolested one haha.

[rgrin]

1 hour ago, volitan71 said:

Just talking to another machinist in the company, he suggests putting bushings right in to the table. 

I didn't like the idea at first, spent so many years trying to not drill into a table, but the more I think about it I like it.

Just don't overshoot the tolerance...

That's the sketchiest part of machining the bushings into the table IMO.  You only get 1 chance to get it right.

[DC CNC]

This is what we use.

https://www.jergensinc.com/en/product/ball-lock-multipurpose-subplates

[Kalibre]

8 minutes ago, rgrin said:

Just don't overshoot the tolerance...

That's the sketchiest part of machining the bushings into the table IMO.  You only get 1 chance to get it right.

A little belzona can give a guy a lot of first chances. 

[metalmansteve]

Been using Jergens Ball-Lock system for 20+ years.  

I've bought their subplates, made my own but most recently had Saunders make me a custom plate with their grid + a pattern of Jergens ball locks.  Very happy with it.

 

[rgrin]

8 minutes ago, metalmansteve said:

Been using Jergens Ball-Lock system for 20+ years.  

I've bought their subplates, made my own but most recently had Saunders make me a custom plate with their grid + a pattern of Jergens ball locks.  Very happy with it.

 

I personally think this is the better way to go.  It requires a bit of forethought how you want it arranged. But it allows quite alot of flexibility with the grid and also just swapping out to a different plate if the first one isn't what you like. Definitely more expensive tho...

[Kyle F]

1 hour ago, Kalibre said:

A little belzona can give a guy a lot of first chances. 

had to google,... never heard of that stuff but that sounds interesting... I'll keep this in mind for future fixturing mess-ups 

[volitan71]

13 hours ago, Kyle F said:

had to google,... never heard of that stuff but that sounds interesting... I'll keep this in mind for future fixturing mess-ups 

 

Me too  I thought it was slang for something else. Turns out it's a product

[Kalibre]

14 hours ago, Kyle F said:

had to google,... never heard of that stuff but that sounds interesting... I'll keep this in mind for future fixturing mess-ups 

It's not the cheapest, but it sure is good stuff. Used buckets of it saving parts for power gen, chemical plant, off-shore and mining customers.

Machine table repair was a happy consequence, has saved a lot of heartache.

[volitan71]

Going to see if I can talk the boss into those Saunders Machine plates. $4800 for the three machines, bolt them on, modify the vises and done.

After sleeping on it, I really don't want to bore holes in the tables.