Breaking out of the stone age

[K10LT1]

Hi everyone,

 

My shop will be getting seven new Mazaks by the end of the year and my boss asked me to put together a list of things that we would need to bring us out of the black smith era and implement a high speed discipline. We machine a wide variety of materials and components with exception to mold and die. Of the seven machines we will be getting an Integrex and a Variaxis along with verticals and horizontals with all of the bells and whistles.

 

I am interested to hear what you guys recommend I add to the list, or products that have helped you out in the past.

 

Thank you

Kyle

 

[ 04-09-2008, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: gcode ]

[K10LT1]

Oops didn’t proof read “Breaking”

[gcode]

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Oops didn’t proof read “Breaking

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fixed

Sounds like exiting times are coming at your shop

[TR Mfg.]

You didn't say what you have on the shop floor now but I would think some training is going to be needed.

[MLS]

Shrink-fit tool holders

Carbide & Varimill tools

Technigrips

Vaccuum fixturing

 

 

...and a good exhaust fan.

[crazy^millman]

Get your tool vendors involved now. Show them projects and parts you currently run and what you will be getting in the way of equipment. Look to the Horizontals as machines to quick change plate tpye systems if using fixture plates. Look to the Integrex and plan jobs correctly for it. 10 pcs jobs better be 10 operations if done on any other machine. Like wise 1000 pcs job need only 3 operation on other machine for this to be the best fit. Get planning going now, Get fixturing going now and get programming going now. Plan out your 1st 10 jobs on each machine budget for the tooling, fixturing and programming and be ready to hit them running once the machines have power to them. Do it now, not then. Look to hire someone with this type of programming experience, look to a M.E.(Manufacturing Engineer) that is use to this type of environment for getting things going. Make sure everyone understands how they just made jobs for themselves for the next 5 years with no problems. Also this how we did it need to be blown out the window with C4 even if that mean some heads go to roll.

 

Get down the concept of programming from center or Rotary on the Horizontal. A tool presetter if you best friend for one of these machines.

 

Need more information shoot me an email and be glad assist you in anyway I can.

 

HTH

[MultiAxGod]

quote:

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My shop will be getting seven new Mazaks by the end of the year

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Sorry. I feel for ya!! We have 4 here and I'm hopin they'll call for something to hold down the Queen Mary in place. Seems like a fitting job for 'em!

 

 

Follow what Crazy said and you'll be ok. They take some getting used to. Start getting ready now. Did your boss/owner work out turnkeys on some of your parts?

Forget Mazatrol use. No control with it and the operators don't like that they can't see where the machine is going to.

[Guest]

Save the money and by HAAS

 

[MACHINEMASTERG]

john has seen the light .....the bottom of a 12 pack of cans of light beer

[MLS]

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john has seen the light .....the bottom of a 12 pack of cans of light beer

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Pabst Blue Ribbon I am sure for the Haas lover.

 

Seriously, one of the biggest things I saw going from lower speed to higher speed is the mentality of the operators and machinists. If you aren't currently doing high speed machining, make a test program that represents what Mazak says the machine can handle and gather the whole shop to watch. If you aren't using certain methodology, do a simple test and show everyone. That mentality is tough to break if there are alot of employees and seeing something that represents potential may get a bit of excitement going. The worst thing to me is having this huge potential then watching people do every thing they can to return back to the old ways.

[robk]

Congratulations

We also have a few Mazaks in here. Are you getting the horizontal or the vertical integrex?

 

Utilize the machines to their full potential. Use the laser setters as well as the touch probes. Use the tool life management if you could.

Get a bulletproof post for your Variaxis as well as the Integrex (I hear In-House has some good ones, but I wouldn't know since I don't use mastercam )

When you're ready for your training on the integrex you might want to mention a name of Martin Roderick. He is a private contractor that used to work for Mazak. Mazak hires him when they are in over their heads

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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Shrink-fit tool holders

Carbide & Varimill tools

Technigrips

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Shrink fit for THEEEEE most rigid way to hang onto a CARBIDE tool (well 'cept for welding but I won't go into that...

 

Carbide and Varimill tools... Good quality carbide and indexable tools will let your machine do what it was born to do.

 

Technigrips, BY FAR one of THEEEEE most effective ways to use a common work-holding method that is flexible and as repeatable as you want it to be. These things kick SERIOUS @$$ and I would HIGHLY reccommend them to anyone looking to simplify workholding for VMC's, HMC's and 5-Axis.

 

JM2C

[fistafury17]

Congrats!!!

 

Don't forget to cover the machining center tables with mag-chucks. I like the Technomagnete.

[Bruce Caulley]

quote:

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Get down the concept of programming from center or Rotary on the Horizontal. A tool presetter if you best friend for one of these machines.

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On this I disagree only because I think the Mazak horizontals should have dynamic compensation. If they do then set the datum on the most easily referenced part of the job and let the machine worry about the rest. If they don't then centre of rotation is the way to go.

 

My advice is to make sure everything that can be done before the machine is ready to do a job is done as a matter of priority. A good machine is no good if it is sitting idle while tools are built, or material cut, or programmes tweaked and posted.

 

Bruce

[K10LT1]

Everyone great replies, I am taking notes, and enjoying the humor.

 

We are a very old school shop, whit a great amount of (outdated) talent. I have written some example programs and used backplot to demonstrate. I have the op. manager wanting more. I am going to have many obstacles to overcome, I am only 23 and it is going to be very difficult for everyone in the shop to take me and these new techniques seriously. MLS you hit the nail on the head, it is going to be very unsettling to see these machines run at 10,000rpm and 400ipm directly in to the side of a block of material with old school techniques because there “high speed”.

 

We will be getting the e-420hs-II integrex. This is going to be my machine!! I cant wait to learn how machine all over again!!

 

Any advice on how to really push hsm into the minds of all the skeptics would be greadly appreciated.

[K10LT1]

wow my mespelling was corrected. neat trick.

[YoDoug®]

If your spending that kind of coin on machines and plan on running true high speeds, my advice is to get Vericut. Its kind of hard to prove out a program in the machine at 1000IPM.

[Zoober]

Thru spindle air and coolant. A must if you are looking at the high feed cutters. Also the Iscar feed mills work really well in our applications (steels, Ti, and tool steels) at over .07/rev feeds..

[crazy^millman]

Well we have an E410-HS here and I do all the programming for it. If you have any specific questions fell free to email me. I have helped a little with some people with regards to the Integrex machines.

 

Bruce the reason I say get a presetter is the fact loading tool time more than anything. If you have all the values for the tools before even loading the machine done you save time. Imagine loading 40 to 75 tools and having to touch them all off in the machine. If you were doing this 2 to 10 times a week that is a lot of lost time. Now the cool thing is all the mills can be set-up the same way so if you had 8 mills and were presetting all the machines before had and just loading in tools and uploading the tool lengths in 5 seconds from a Memory card, or through the Ethernet connection they all have you start saving tons of time which translates into more profit. We have a job in the shop right now that has 35 tools all having to be loaded by hand on one mill, the next job behind it has 14 tools all take about an average of 3-5 minutes to load touch off and go to the next. That is almost 2 hours of time. We lost $360 time in upfront cost and time not put on the next job. Now if we do that 2 times a week for a year it has cost the company $18720 in just taking time to load tools at the machine and touch them off for one machine we have 4 mills so it could cost our company almost $75,000 a year by not having a presetter. WE do not have a touch setter on our machines. Mazak will be faster before you go jumping down my example. I am just trying to provoke some thought and give a suggestion as the validity to using a presetter. Point is time is money and everything you can do to cut down set-up time is money saved and money earned over shops that are not thinking progressively is all.

 

HTH

[Bruce Caulley]

Ron,

I am all for presetters too. I used your exact argument to make sure we had a dedicated man in the toolstore who did nothing else. When I said set the datum on the part in the machine I meant the work offset, not the tool lengths. With dynamic comp the distance from machine home to centre of rotation is stored in the parameters allowing you to have the origin anywhere you want it. On a machine with this feature there is no real need to programme from centre of rotation.

 

Bruce

[K10LT1]

We altucally have a really nice tool setter for our flex machining line. Funny thing is whenever a part gets scraped on the line its that darn toolsetters fault... right. You definately have a point and i am definately going to take the time to learn it. Also I am going to start working on an example dimenstration. I think that I will reprogram the high speed start outside sample file. Seems to have lots of good features that HSM is made for. Any tips and tricks to sweep them off of there feet.

 

And as for the Integrex I all ready have a page of question. We fortunately ordered ours at the right time, just ahead of a company that ordered 14 of em.

 

Thanks everyone for the replys.

Kyle

[fistafury17]

Using a presetter on a Mazak? Sorry, I never heard of it. Don't they all have tool setting plungers? I typically load all my Mazak tooling through the back of the magazine and do tool measure auto, takes about 30 secs per tool while I'm doin something more productive.

[gms1]

quote:

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Technigrips, BY FAR one of THEEEEE most effective ways to use a common work-holding method that is flexible and as repeatable as you want it to be. These things kick SERIOUS @$$ and I would HIGHLY reccommend them to anyone looking to simplify workholding for VMC's, HMC's and 5-Axis.

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Im curious now. We cut a lot of different materials here (4140, crs, ss, aluminum) and we take some fairly hefty HP sucking cuts. Will this system really hold on 1/8 stock taking some highfeed cuts? I see the website and I know how a marketing campaign works. Id rather hear it from people who use it.

[Colin Gilchrist]

I've seen Techigrip holders ripped off a tombstone while still holding onto the part. Someone sent a 4" facemill into the part (Ti) at full rapid, 1" below the part surface (.285 max insert depth)

 

The force bent several of the 1/2-13 bolts that were holding down the strap clamps, but the part was still mounted in the Technigrip holder. I was sold.

 

I'm just glad there weren't more bolts and they weren't grade 8. That, and the spindle wasn't blown (yet ).

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...Imagine loading 40 to 75 tools and having to touch them all off in the machine...

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What I like to do (learned this from a former boss) is edit the tool change MACRO to look for a certain value in the tool length offset then if it sees that value, it jumps into the Tool Length Measurement Cycle automatically. Make that value that the MACRO is looking for be something you would never have as a tool offset (i.e. 99. or 65.4321, etc...) Then when you add new tools to the magazine, you set the tool offset to your designated number, then no worries (if you have a laser), IF you have a contact style tool measurement probe and a non center type cutting tool, or a tool who's diameter that exceeds the diameter of the probe face, you'll have to do those individually via MDI. Still a huge timesaver. It'll take on average 5-10 sec.

 

+1 to Colin, on the Technigrip vises. If you loose one of those suckers, you've got bigger problems than the part launching...

 

For some reason people just don;t believe what you can get done with holding onto only .060" or so... WITH THE RIGHT VISE that's the key. No sales BS, it works.