kitamura or okuma?

[cherokeechief79]

i know little about these 2 but we are leaning towards one of these.both would have fanuc controls.we are looking for a 50 taper heavy vertical with box ways.something in the way of 60 in travel in the x.i am just starting to do some research on them tonite.are there any outstanding features you guys like about either of these machines?

thanks for any input

mark

[Greg Williams]

If you want to move metal and lots of it I would recommend the OKUMA MA550VB/650VB 1100nm of torque on the spindle

[cherokeechief79]

we do heavy milling in mostly hardened steels(up to 50 rockwell)ans exotics and stainless.we are looking at the okuma 761v and the kitamura 7x.i looked into kitamura yrs ago and found the horizontal we were looking at to be great for high speed aluminum milling.somehow in my head i have always associated them with high speed milling but this machine seems pretty heavy with box ways.others i have talked to about the okuma loved it but they all used the okuma software.we cannot introduce another operating system so they have decided to stick with funuc.

[Mick]

Why is introducing another control an issue? I've worked in shops running multiple controls, and it is a non issue. There are a number of dialled Okuma mill posts available.

[Joe788]

Why is introducing another control an issue? I've worked in shops running multiple controls, and it is a non issue. There are a number of dialled Okuma mill posts available.

 

You bring a brand spanking new OSP into a shop full of Fanuc controls - you'll have fist fights over the damn thing once people get it figured out.

[Brando]

we have okuma vertical mills and a kitamura horizontal, the cutting performance is about the same , the maintenance is not, the kit requires about 5x more attention then the okuma's, and the kit also leaks all over the floor badly , because of poor sheet metal design inside , rtv works for about a week or two, so id go okuma all the way

[Mick]

You bring a brand spanking new OSP into a shop full of Fanuc controls - you'll have fist fights over the damn thing once people get it figured out.

 

Hehe, the OSP controls sure are nice. Our shop is all Okuma

[mkd]

Why is introducing another control an issue? I've worked in shops running multiple controls, and it is a non issue. There are a number of dialled Okuma mill posts available.

 

can and should are different.

should one arbitrarily add a whole new control? i wouldn't. there will be costs for the life of the mismatch. training, operating, different maintenance contractors and specs.

 

IMHO, there need to be a strong reason to add a new control; some feature that adds significant value. otherwise your wasting efforts.

[GoetzInd]

Can't go wrong with either IMO.

 

Mike

[chris m]

IMHO, there need to be a strong reason to add a new control

 

How about the fact that OSP controls and electronics are supported by the same company as the iron? One of our Fanuc controlled machines has been down for a MONTH (hopefully we'll get her running today, so far so good) while Fanuc and the machine manufacturer have pointed the finger at each other about this and that and the other thing. There is a Fanuc office a half hour from here; can I call them? NO. I have to call ph****** 888 FANUC US every hour and talk to some guy who doesn't know me from a hole in the ground and doesn't care a whole lot about my predicament.

 

The Okuma guys know they'll not sell you another machine if they bone you on service and support, the Fanuc guys don't care.

 

The OSP is a more intuitive control than the Fanuc from a programming and operation perspective.

 

We've had one OSP board failure in hundreds of thousands of hours of run time; Fanuc is pretty good, dut OSP uptime has been better fior us.

 

I think buying an Okuma with a Fanuc on it is like buying a 6-cylinder Camaro...

[jeff]

Get the Okuma with the OSP control, you will NOT regret it....ever.

Mid-Auto Manual is the best feature ever invented! lol

[?Mark]

"Fanuc and the machine manufacturer have pointed the finger at each other about this and that and the other thing"

 

^^^+1

 

With the exception of macturn, it's all fanuc, yasnac and mitsubishi here and I totaly agree. This has been my experience as well, waiting months for the half a$$ response especially from fanuc...

Okuma's "one stop shopping" wins me over...

 

This topic deserves a thread of it's own

[T_MALENA]

_{Yea I'm in agreement with ^^^ChrisM,Mark,Jeff. I've had the same EXACT experience with Fanuc on xyz machine over & over. When the fanuc machines are running they are awesome. When there is a problem between fanuc & the machine its a finger pointing contest. I wouldn't pass up a good deal on a machine with a Fanuc 16,18 etc. control. I would pass on a 0 control! I would NEVER buy a Fanuc on a Okuma!!! Anyone who can run a cnc can run any cnc. Ask anyone here, the process is the same you just have a different control. Whats the big deal of adding a Okuma into a Fanuc shop?! Years ago when everyone was using Hog mills to rough the same was said about using carbide to rough, now who uses hog mills. I've run both Okuma & Fanuc - can also throw in Heidenhain, Seimens & Mitsubishi. They all have good & bad about them. The big plus with Okuma is they service everything they sell, period. Anyone telling you to put a fanuc control on a Okuma isn't familiar with Okuma. I think most here will agree when either a Fanuc or Okuma control is running they cant be beat. BUT when you have issues(& you will) Okuma will get it done & Fanuc will be point at the machine builder who will be pointing at Fanuc.}

 

_{enough said}

[CADCAM3D5AXIS]

+10000

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

The OSP is a more intuitive control than the Fanuc from a programming and operation perspective.

 

That's your opinion. I happen to think the opposite.

 

(flame suit on to revive the battle)

 

[Dimensional Machine]

I would go Kitamura all the way; they have a new control "Arumatik".

Aumatik control has Mitsubishi guts and is PC based, all options are standard with Kitamura even 1600 Block look ahead. Price out the “Super Nurbs” from Okuma it will be north of 10k.

The Okuma we have still leaks spindle chiller oil somewhere even after the dealer has "looked" at it 4 times.

The OSP 200M needs to cut everything using their "High Cut" or nothing will be in tolerance.

I cannot just chain the end of square/rectangular stock sticking out from the vice there will be a cusp left on both ends and I always need to extend the geometry or extend using the lead-in / lead-out. I hate programming around machine nuances; my 18 year old Milltronics has none of the issues this thing has.

[chris m]

Sorry, James, too busy to drag that old horse out again just now.

 

I cannot just chain the end of square/rectangular stock sticking out from the vice there will be a cusp left on both ends and I always need to extend the geometry or extend using the lead-in / lead-out

 

Don't understand you; the machine goes where you tell it to, doesn't it?

 

OP I think Kitamura makes a decent machine, better than decent actually, but if you buy an Okuma, please don't put a Fanuc on it.

 

Fanuc guy has been here all day, again, and machine still throws alarms every [30] minutes...

[mkd]

so basically what we are ALL saying is if you want Fanuc type operation, and the total machine supported by GREAT service,

drumroll...

 

buy a HAAS.

[Dimensional Machine]

Don't understand you; the machine goes where you tell it to, doesn't it?

 

 

No it does not; it starts .03" in and stops .03" shy, without the "High Cut" turned on.

Here is what you program:

 

(Sorry the picture pastes in the editor does not show in the Forum)

(The Gallery will not let me upload any files to it; acts like it works but does not)

 

Here is what you get:

(Sorry the picture pastes in the editor does not show in the Forum)

(The Gallery will not let me upload any files to it; acts like it works but does not)

 

 

Note the cusps on the ends of the single chained line

From the pictures you would have more easily seen what I am talking about, I wil try to describe.

I typically square off the end of bar stock sticking out the end of my vice.

I use 50% of the tool and an arc of say .03" with 20Deg of sweep.

The part will have a small cusp on each end of the chained line. As if the stock was .06" or so oversize (and picked up .03" wrong in Y).

The week after we got the machine brand new I asked the dealer WTF, they said that I did not know how to use the Hi Cut. So now I extend the contour anywhere where I want to completely finish across, and run Hi Cut on everything.

The G80 also wastes time un-necessairly end of a drill cycle when G80 is read it dwells for 1 to 2 seconds, dont know why it just does. The work arround for us is a G00 repeat of the last point then the G80 this prevents the dwell. The G00 cancels the drill cycle anyway but the G80 is "cancel drill ccle" so I feel better having it there.

 

 

The Okuma Lathes are top notch IMHO, the OSP control is Great as well, but this shops next purchase will be the Kitamura over the Okuma for many reasons.

[YoDoug®]

 

I typically square off the end of bar stock sticking out the end of my vice.

I use 50% of the tool and an arc of say .03" with 20Deg of sweep.

The part will have a small cusp on each end of the chained line. As if the stock was .06" or so oversize (and picked up .03" wrong in Y).

The week after we got the machine brand new I asked the dealer WTF, they said that I did not know how to use the Hi Cut. So now I extend the contour anywhere where I want to completely finish across, and run Hi Cut on everything.

The G80 also wastes time un-necessairly end of a drill cycle when G80 is read it dwells for 1 to 2 seconds, dont know why it just does. The work arround for us is a G00 repeat of the last point then the G80 this prevents the dwell. The G00 cancels the drill cycle anyway but the G80 is "cancel drill ccle" so I feel better having it there.

 

 

 

 

What are your High-Cut settings and what feedrate?

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

Sorry, James, too busy to drag that old horse out again just now

 

Awwwwww, c'mon Chris. You KNOW you have fun bantering.

[Dimensional Machine]

What are your High-Cut settings and what feedrate?

 

The issue shows up at 10 to 15 inches a minute without high cut.

I'm not sure that it happens with High Cut on; but why on earth must I turn on something to make the part right?

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

.. why on earth must I turn on something to make the part right?

 

Great question. On FANUC machines, with no look ahead feature turned on, block processing is at 8ms and no block look ahead. With AI-NANO I on, you drop to about 4ms and look ahead startts at 80 blocks. You can get up to 200 block look ahead depending on the options thta came with the machine. Go to AI-NANO II you can get up to 1,000 Block Look Ahead and processing of .4ms (yes point 4). So what does this all mean in english? It means if you have it, turn it on. It's there for a reason. Your machine performs better, smoother and faster. The only types of toolpaths that don;t need it are drilling toolpaths.

 

Some builders wil turn it on automatically so you never know it's on.

HTH

[Mick]

It is like Chevy and Ford. There'll always be those that a pro different controls. Always makes for a good discussion.

 

Except for James though.... I hear he drives a Lada...

 

Hmm, I better get myrunning shoes on.... hehe

[Guest SAIPEM]

The Okuma 761-V is actually an Okuma-Howa design.

Okuma bought out Okuma-Howa and shut it down in 2004.

 

Okuma-Howa got that name when Howa-Sangyo was about to go under back in the late 1970's.

Okuma provided capital but didn't want anything to do with operating the company.

 

The 761-V was designed with Fanuc from the very beginning and is arguably one of the best box way verticals ever made.

Getting any of the legacy O&H machines with OSP is essentially a retrofit.

Fanuc vs OSP is a Ford vs Chevy argument and total personal preference.

I have a distaste for OSP since they decided NOT to follow RS-274D.

 

Okumas VTLs are actually the old O&H designs.

Originally Okuma got the castings from O&H.

After O&H was shut down, Okuma was actually getting their castings from Doosan (Daewoo).

 

Any Okuma machine is a well built machine.

The real question is whether or not it's worth the additional 35% to a comparable competitor.

The answer to that question really depends on the machine type and work you'll do.