New Post Language

[Alex Kellerton]

Hey guys.

I've recently started to watch Colin's post processor videos because I've always wanted to have more control over what's being posted and just be a more valuable employee.

I just went to some mcam training thru my local reseller and one of the guys thinks it's a waste of time because if you're on maintenance you can have your reseller edit the posts for you, and that if you run into some major problems that need fixing on your customized posts that they will not touch it.

He also mentioned that pretty soon the language is going to change and everything is going to be different.

I'm trying not to get discouraged and I will continue to learn thru Colin's videos but I'm curious as to what you guys think about all of this.

Thanks!

[SuperHoneyBadger]

I'm sure the change they are referencing is the IKE posts, or maybe Postability. So no new features will be added to MPMaster, but we are told for now the posts will still be able to be used in future versions of MasterCam. There are a TON of people using MPMaster, so I don't think they will suddenly remove our ability to use it.

Learning it will still be a valuable exercise in the way posts work. I learned MPMaster in the last few years, and my knowledge there helped me make sense of the IKE post's structure and variables.

Also, I have not had any issues with In-House Solutions helping me troubleshoot my posts. They are pretty customized with multiple machines per post, extra variables, calculations etc. They are always willing to help, from my experience.

[JParis]

LIkely MP.net which has been on the burner for many years...perhaps it is finally going to migrate into the rest of the product and not just Mill/Turn...

Dunno who your reseller is, not interested in finding out just is sounds like the typical sales pitch...if you have a custom purchased post, the post writer will support it...

I find it difficult to believe that with ALL of the MP posts out there, that they will just deprecate everything that was previous...that would be a fool's errand. 

I would still learn it as if nothing else is learned, the person learning with learn logic flow...

[Newbeeee™]

IF....this is going to happen (MPNet)....hopefully for everyone's sake, it's well thought out and well implemented.

Last thing users will want is any removal of features and restrictions on DIY editing, and a half-arsed implementation.

[So not a Guru]

I have never regretted learning a new skill, or improving my knowledge of an existing one. In one way or another, the knowledge has, and continues to, make me a better programmer/mechanic/human.

Anyone who suggest to you that learning is a waste of time, does not have your best interests in mind.

I would suggest not listening to those folks.

On the other hand @Colin Gilchrist has proven to be one of the most knowledgeable people on this forum. He is also one of the most generous in his willingness to openly share his knowledge with all of us.

I would suggest learning from his treasure trove of content.

[Jobnt]

15 hours ago, Newbeeee™ said:

hopefully for everyone's sake, it's well thought out and well implemented.

I'm sure it will be for those involved in it's development. "Hey Clem I think we got all them thar bugs."

But for the users? That remains to be seen. I cringe at the thought of this turning out like MC's Active ReBidens.

[Colin Gilchrist]

Thank you all for the kind words.

MP.NET has been in development for a while, all focused on the Mastercam Mill-Turn product. I know the plan is to eventually transition all products over to use MP.NET, but I've been hearing that since 2011, when I was working in the Post Department at CNC Software.

Now, CNC Software has purchased Postability, so hopefully they will be able to put additional resources towards MP.NET development.

The elephant in the room with MP.NET is that you must have a Developer License to modify the Posts. Say goodbye to your ability to make your own changes, or develop your own Posts.

I will be curious to see what happens long term with Mastercam Posts. I can't see the MP Language going away for at least another decade.

Some issues with this transition:

• There is no mechanism to convert MP Posts into MP.NET Posts. The languages and processing are completely different.
• Someone will need to foot the bill for this conversion. That will likely fall on the customer's shoulders.
• No more "user-development" of Posts without a license. Will they issue licenses to customers for their own development? Who knows.
• No more "independent 3rd Party Post Developers" who aren't licensed by CNC Software as a MP.NET Developer.

Learning MP Posts is still a valuable skill, and will serve you well for likely the next decade.

You know those meme pictures where there is a skeleton, with a phrase like "Still waiting for the original poster to respond"? We need one that says "Still waiting for MP.NET to replace MP...".

I do find it telling that your instructor was following the party line of "if you're on maintenance you can have your reseller edit the posts for you, and that if you run into some major problems that need fixing on your customized posts that they will not touch it"

I won't directly contradict that statement on a Mastercam forum, because I don't want to stir up trouble. But I think both of those statements are designed to get you to spend money, rather than learning a skill. I prefer to teach men to fish, rather than requiring them to buy fish from me in perpetuity.

[SuperHoneyBadger]

I'm all for having an advanced product, or the best version of something. Not to crap on anyone's hard work - but this sounds like an Apple-level tech dystopia. I see this software as a deep and varied toolbox that I can use to make, quite literally, anything. And make it the way I need to. Program the machines our shops own, expediently, and make sure the code is posted for how those machines need to ingest the instructions. Removing controls from us removes innovations.

We still have some hardworking machines that are 25 to 30 years old, and I have made sure these old boys can hang, but I needed to modify the post. I don't see the upside for customers in this format, and your everyday programmer will be losing out on a large percentage of what they can learn with regards to how the software communicates with a machine tool.

I hesitate to think this is an industry where "it works, but I don't know why" passes.

[cncappsjames]

1 hour ago, Colin Gilchrist said:

I prefer to teach men to fish, rather than requiring them to buy fish from me in perpetuity.

This x eleventy-billion!

[gcode]

1 hour ago, Colin Gilchrist said:

• There is no mechanism to convert MP Posts into MP.NET Posts. The languages and processing are completely different.
• Someone will need to foot the bill for this conversion. That will likely fall on the customer's shoulders.

I think they will see a catastrophic drop in maintenance renewals if they implement this.

I am currently responsible for 32 different milling posts and 21 lathe posts that reside on a network

About 20% of them are Postability posts, but even so, the time and effort required to update posts 

from one release to the next is one of the things I most dislike about  Mastercam.

The idea that at some point I will have to pay someone to update all these posts so I can use MC2027 or whatever

and that this cost will reoccur annually, does not bear thinking about. 

Add the stress involved trying to run a 120man machine shop with 50 new and unproven posts and even the most

ardent Mastercam fanbio is going to blink.

An additional issue is, there are 250K seats of Mastercam in use and God knows how many posts.

There are not enough post developers on the planet to handle the migration process.

 

[cncappsjames]

9 minutes ago, gcode said:

....

An additional issue is, there are 250K seats of Mastercam in use and God knows how many posts.

There are not enough post developers on the planet to handle the migration process.

.....

There's not enough Post Developers to handle that migration process over the course of 5 YEARS let alone one release. Hopefully the right person/group is watching this discussion.

[Colin Gilchrist]

42 minutes ago, gcode said:

I think they will see a catastrophic drop in maintenance renewals if they implement this.

I am currently responsible for 32 different milling posts and 21 lathe posts that reside on a network

About 20% of them are Postability posts, but even so, the time and effort required to update posts 

from one release to the next is one of the things I most dislike about  Mastercam.

The idea that at some point I will have to pay someone to update all these posts so I can use MC2027 or whatever

and that this cost will reoccur annually, does not bear thinking about. 

Add the stress involved trying to run a 120man machine shop with 50 new and unproven posts and even the most

ardent Mastercam fanbio is going to blink.

An additional issue is, there are 250K seats of Mastercam in use and God knows how many posts.

There are not enough post developers on the planet to handle the migration process.

 

Updating Posts should take a few minutes, using the Migration Wizard, unless the Posts are 3rd Party (like Postability), which are locked to a specific Mastercam Version, and require an update from the developer.

I would bet you need to set your "Control Definition Defaults". This would simplify the updating process for any Posts that you've built or maintain, which are not version locked. (If there is no "PSB", the Post is open.)

[Jobnt]

2 hours ago, gcode said:

I think they will see a catastrophic drop in maintenance renewals if they implement this.

 

My guess is literally 75% of mom-n-pop shops will quit maintenance and half of those will say xxxx it and move to something that isn't moving backwards in the name of progress.

[Alex Dales]

We still sell plenty of IKE Lathe posts, despite the existence of Mill-Turn all these years

[Newbeeee™]

2 hours ago, gcode said:

I think they will see a catastrophic drop in maintenance renewals if they implement this.

I am currently responsible for 32 different milling posts and 21 lathe posts that reside on a network

About 20% of them are Postability posts, but even so, the time and effort required to update posts 

from one release to the next is one of the things I most dislike about  Mastercam.

The idea that at some point I will have to pay someone to update all these posts so I can use MC2027 or whatever

and that this cost will reoccur annually, does not bear thinking about. 

Add the stress involved trying to run a 120man machine shop with 50 new and unproven posts and even the most

ardent Mastercam fanbio is going to blink.

An additional issue is, there are 250K seats of Mastercam in use and God knows how many posts.

There are not enough post developers on the planet to handle the migration process.

 

Is Fusion an option?

:BooM:

 

[StevenM]

1 hour ago, Colin Gilchrist said:

Updating Posts should take a few minutes, using the Migration Wizard, unless the Posts are 3rd Party (like Postability), which are locked to a specific Mastercam Version, and require an update from the developer.

I would bet you need to set your "Control Definition Defaults". This would simplify the updating process for any Posts that you've built or maintain, which are not version locked. (If there is no "PSB", the Post is open.)

At the risk of asking something that may have an obvious answer...

We have a Postability post, I have only ever used the migration wizard when updating versions. Should I be contacting postability/my reseller when I update each year?  

[crazy^millman]

2 minutes ago, Newbeeee™ said:

Is Fusion an option?

:BooM:

 

Not in a million Years I will revert back to Pencil and Paper first.

1 minute ago, StevenM said:

At the risk of asking something that may have an obvious answer...

We have a Postability post, I have only ever used the migration wizard when updating versions. Should I be contacting postability/my reseller when I update each year?  

Yes what you pay post maintenance for. The same goes for In-House posts. They have a great team to support their customers.

[StevenM]

6 minutes ago, crazy^millman said:

Not in a million Years I will revert back to Pencil and Paper first.

Yes what you pay post maintenance for. The same goes for In-House posts. They have a great team to support their customers.

I did not know that, I thought all I had to do was run the migration wizard. 

Thanks Colin and Ron!

[Newbeeee™]

But seriously....one of the main reasons (deciding factors) for my 3x seat Mastercam purchase when I was Eng Manager of a place back in 2000, was post customisability and reseller support. And roll forwards to when I had my own place in 2005 and bought 2x more seats, that underlined the initial decision.

Ultimately 1x mill post which handled Robodrill/VMC/3ax/4ax simultaneous combinations, by having a couple of posting prompts, was superb. Flexible customisation, is the name of the game IMHO, and to lose even 10%, would be a bad move....

[crazy^millman]

13 minutes ago, StevenM said:

I did not know that, I thought all I had to do was run the migration wizard. 

Thanks Colin and Ron!

Nope there are many customers not getting the best process and code they can out of current version because they do this. The updater doesn't add needed logic to a post it only makes sure what it here is not broken to keep doing what it should be for making code. the other thing is anyone using Machine simulator tied to a post is not getting the most current support for that by not letting the pros do what they are paid to do.

[byte]

On 8/17/2023 at 1:58 PM, SuperHoneyBadger said:

I'm sure the change they are referencing is the IKE posts, or maybe Postability. So no new features will be added to MPMaster, but we are told for now the posts will still be able to be used in future versions of MasterCam. There are a TON of people using MPMaster, so I don't think they will suddenly remove our ability to use it.

Learning it will still be a valuable exercise in the way posts work. I learned MPMaster in the last few years, and my knowledge there helped me make sense of the IKE post's structure and variables.

Also, I have not had any issues with In-House Solutions helping me troubleshoot my posts. They are pretty customized with multiple machines per post, extra variables, calculations etc. They are always willing to help, from my experience.

I believe it's called MP.NET

[Colin Gilchrist]

4 hours ago, StevenM said:

At the risk of asking something that may have an obvious answer...

We have a Postability post, I have only ever used the migration wizard when updating versions. Should I be contacting postability/my reseller when I update each year?  

No need to contact your Reseller when updating, provided the Post internally is not "Version locked". To "lock a Post to a specific Mastercam version", requires writing logic to test your Mastercam License.

Most Reseller Posts are not locked by version (some are, really depends), and so you can simply do as you've always done, and update them all using the Migration Wizard.

For the Migration Wizard to work properly, each Control Definition File needs to have the "Control Definition Default Settings" correctly configured. If you are buying your Posts, then this should have been done for you "out of the box".

You should be good to continue using the same update process you've been using.

[Colin Gilchrist]

On 8/17/2023 at 1:10 PM, Alex Kellerton said:

if you run into some major problems that need fixing on your customized posts that they will not touch it.

Sorry, I just have to revisit this statement again. This is basically the guy admitting that many Resellers don't have the Post Development and Debugging skills, in-house, with developers employed by the Reseller.

Any competent Mastercam Post Developer, should be able to fix anyone's code, unless they have truly gone "off the rails", but I've only ever seen a couple of instances of that happening.

It is true that if you completely hack up all the logic, and "break" the architecture through bad coding (or refusing to listen to good advice and reason), that even a competent Post developer would say no. But that is really much more the exception, rather than the rule. (And sounds to me like a sales scare tactic. "These things are really complicated, and you might break it, so better to just let our dealership change your oil for $120 bucks, rather than you doing it yourself. If you put the wrong oil in, your car might blow up!  )

I've got 42 videos on MP Post Development, which are part of my MP 101 Basic Post Processing class. All those videos are available for free, and I promise if you watch them, you will at least learn enough to know "where your skills are at, and what you should attempt to code yourself, versus leaving to the professionals".

I'll let you all in on a little secret. I don't develop 5-Axis Posts for customers. Not because I'm not capable, but because of the amount of focused work required. I basically draw the line at 4X Mill and Lathe Posts, and anything more complex I'll use In-House Solutions. If a customer is already using Postability, then that is fine too. In the interest of full disclosure, one of the reasons I love In-House so much is because of their willingness to help machine tool distributors (like Phillips) with Post Support. We can request a Post for just about any machine and configuration, and get a working copy for my Applications Engineers very quickly. Often, in the same day as the request is made. We also get direct support from them when we go onsite for training, in case we discover any Post issues while onsite.

Could I build those 5-Axis Posts? Absolutely, given a clear statement of work, and enough time. But my job involves so many things now of which "Post Development" is just a small piece, I'd rather leave the heavy lifting to the professionals. Plus, I have to support and engage with multiple CAM software platforms, including my new favorite. (Can't name it on here, since that is against the rules, which I respect. Hint: it is two letters, and can do a whole lot more than "just CAM").

 

[byte]

8 hours ago, crazy^millman said:

Not in a million Years I will revert back to Pencil and Paper first.

Fusions not so bad, I'm just too used to Mastercam and the way the interface is all resizable, the api with logical units, although you have to do the conversions yourself, fusions use of centimeters as a unit is pure nonsense. The toolpaths aren't bad, I tried it out when I was shopping for cad systems, I went with mastercam because it's what I knew, and they have been really great with addressing my concerns and issues.. I would say the big advantage is the perpetual licensing.

4 hours ago, Colin Gilchrist said:

Sorry, I just have to revisit this statement again. This is basically the guy admitting that many Resellers don't have the Post Development and Debugging skills, in-house, with developers employed by the Reseller.

Any competent Mastercam Post Developer, should be able to fix anyone's code, unless they have truly gone "off the rails", but I've only ever seen a couple of instances of that happening.

It is true that if you completely hack up all the logic, and "break" the architecture through bad coding (or refusing to listen to good advice and reason), that even a competent Post developer would say no. But that is really much more the exception, rather than the rule. (And sounds to me like a sales scare tactic. "These things are really complicated, and you might break it, so better to just let our dealership change your oil for $120 bucks, rather than you doing it yourself. If you put the wrong oil in, your car might blow up!  )

I've got 42 videos on MP Post Development, which are part of my MP 101 Basic Post Processing class. All those videos are available for free, and I promise if you watch them, you will at least learn enough to know "where your skills are at, and what you should attempt to code yourself, versus leaving to the professionals".

I'll let you all in on a little secret. I don't develop 5-Axis Posts for customers. Not because I'm not capable, but because of the amount of focused work required. I basically draw the line at 4X Mill and Lathe Posts, and anything more complex I'll use In-House Solutions. If a customer is already using Postability, then that is fine too. In the interest of full disclosure, one of the reasons I love In-House so much is because of their willingness to help machine tool distributors (like Phillips) with Post Support. We can request a Post for just about any machine and configuration, and get a working copy for my Applications Engineers very quickly. Often, in the same day as the request is made. We also get direct support from them when we go onsite for training, in case we discover any Post issues while onsite.

Could I build those 5-Axis Posts? Absolutely, given a clear statement of work, and enough time. But my job involves so many things now of which "Post Development" is just a small piece, I'd rather leave the heavy lifting to the professionals. Plus, I have to support and engage with multiple CAM software platforms, including my new favorite. (Can't name it on here, since that is against the rules, which I respect. Hint: it is two letters, and can do a whole lot more than "just CAM").

 

I'm curious if you have written a 5 axis post before and if so, how long would you say it takes?

[Colin Gilchrist]

13 hours ago, byte said:

Fusions not so bad, I'm just too used to Mastercam and the way the interface is all resizable, the api with logical units, although you have to do the conversions yourself, fusions use of centimeters as a unit is pure nonsense. The toolpaths aren't bad, I tried it out when I was shopping for cad systems, I went with mastercam because it's what I knew, and they have been really great with addressing my concerns and issues.. I would say the big advantage is the perpetual licensing.

I'm curious if you have written a 5 axis post before and if so, how long would you say it takes?

I have written several dozen of them over the years. Most of the ones I've developed were "mechanical kinematics", where the machine does not use Dynamic Codes. The Dynamic Codes allow you to adjust the machine to track the Rotary and Tilt axes, zero points, and offsets.

For a "purely mechanical" 5-Axis Post, I can set one up in about 20 minutes, and they usually require 1-2 days of back-and-forth testing, or less.

But the problem is: these posts rely heavily on being able to take precise measurements at the machine. And you must move your geometry in Mastercam, relative to the "center of rotation" on the actual machine. In other words, you must completely configure your virtual world, to match your physical world. That means you must actually measure at the machine, any time your physical geometry is not oriented perfectly at the machine, and you must repost your NC Program for any changes at the machine. Or, alternatively, you must take the time to "dial in your part perfectly" at the machine, and any error in the setup is translated into errors on the part as you move and rotate the tool and/or part in 5-Axis.

I've written several 5-Axis Posts that support Dynamic Codes, and to do this right can take days or weeks of effort, depending on exactly what support is required. Dynamic Work Offset, Tool Center Point Control, and Tilted Work Plane, are the "heavy lifting".

Now, couple all the Dynamic Code support, with adding Inverse Kinematics (for driving Machine Simulation from Post Processor output), and you are talking a ton of development time, unless you've already developed a "framework" (like In-House Solutions has done with their IKE Posts), for supporting all these codes.

Now, throw all of that development and architecture away, and start over with MP.NET, from the ground up...