Anchoring machines down

[Roger]

I and my new employers are starting a machine shop. I will be their lead machinist/programmer. I've been in the trade for over 30 years now, the last 16 as a CNC machinist/programmer. We have on order a Haas VF5-SS vertical mill, and a ST-20 lathe. I've never worked in a shop that has anchored the cnc's down.

 

Please give me your opinions on if we should anchor them down, and why or why not. (And I know what everyone on here thinks about Haas :laughing: ).

[mike93]

if the machine builder calls for it ,I would do it, castings are not as thick as they use to be.

[K2csq7]

Roger, why would you not bolt em down?

[crazy^millman]

Would never be a question in my book. I have all the way back to 86 when I 1st learned to level a lathe. School had a 10 foot bed lathe that had sat for 7 years never used brand new. Ever year that was the challenge for the class to level the machine. The 1st class that could level it could use it. The anchor bolts where there with no nut of them and the machine was shimmed up about 6" off the ground. I looked at Mr Martin and asked what idiot did that he laughed and I remember to this day his exact words. "Idiots why what do you mean Mr. Branch?" Looked at me and laughed some more and walked away. I took the machine jacks and lowered it back to the ground. I then took the nuts and put them on the anchor studs and tighten the machine down. I checked level front to back and side to side and adjusted from there. In 2 Hours I was completely done. Mr. Martin told me I was the best student he has ever seen come into shop years later and that one act of breaking it back down to the basics, doing what the book said I should do to make sure it was done right was the thing that impressed him the most in my 3 years there. Yes I made some very cool stuff and it was always top notch work, but my thinking skills and going back to the root problem that young and that early in the class he said stood out in all his years of teaching Machine shop in the Navy and then at High School after retiring from the Navy.

 

Not Trying to toot my own horn, but machines moves with a lot more force and velocity than they did all those years ago. If it was important to do that on a conventional lathe back in 86' I cannot even think why it would not be consider that much more important when today's machines.

[Newbeeee™]

I'd anchor a lathe every time - especially if it has a bar feed. And I'd anchor that as well

Machines that are built kit form (such as Hori's and pallet changers) I'd anchor as well.

Small VMC's - not so sure. None of ours are and it hasn't been a problem, but I'm talking half meter robodrills to 3/4 metre vmc's.

However we never run the robodrills on 100% as the cycle time difference between this and 50% is nothing (25% to 50 is noticeable). But when the machine is on 100% it's like a riveting machine when it's drilling and ooooooooooooooohhhhh they do shake then - so I would anchor them down then.

Don't forget you need a good slab though, either way. And also don't span the machine on different slabs (if you can help it) as the slabs can move.

If in doubt, I'd put the machine pads over some 12" square 1" thick flame cut boiler plate to spread the load.

And good luck starting out

[CADCAM3D5AXIS]

And Yes when not bolted down all machines like to Dance around when they get to cutting ! Good Luck On The New Venture !!!

[gcode]

With an X axis as long as a VF-5 you'll never get it level if you don't bolt it down.

There are minimum specs for the thickness of the floor too.

Check the Haas installation specs and make sure your floor meets them.

If it doesn't you'll need to hammer up the floor and pour a foundation.

[Brando]

bolt them down, pretty much every mtb tells you to do this in the installation manual, case in point we have a couple doosan 500mm hmcs, their weight is 30,000lbs, when i send the y axis up to the top and rapid x end to end, there is a point on the reversal of x i can literally turn the jacking bolts by hand, i also had to increase the x axis acc dec times on all of them to keep it from literally jumping off the floor

[within a thou]

I'd anchor a lathe every time - especially if it has a bar feed. And I'd anchor that as well

Machines that are built kit form (such as Hori's and pallet changers) I'd anchor as well.

Small VMC's - not so sure. None of ours are and it hasn't been a problem, but I'm talking half meter robodrills to 3/4 metre vmc's.

However we never run the robodrills on 100% as the cycle time difference between this and 50% is nothing (25% to 50 is noticeable). But when the machine is on 100% it's like a riveting machine when it's drilling and ooooooooooooooohhhhh they do shake then - so I would anchor them down then.

Don't forget you need a good slab though, either way. And also don't span the machine on different slabs (if you can help it) as the slabs can move.

If in doubt, I'd put the machine pads over some 12" square 1" thick flame cut boiler plate to spread the load.

And good luck starting out

 

I just bought a Okuma Genos lathe with a LNS bar feeder that arrived 2 weeks ago. Both the Okuma rep and LNS rep I spoke to said they advise against bolting them down which I thought was odd especially on the bar feeder with a tray design that takes the weight of the material for the feeder all hanging off the back.

 

Neither rep gave me a reason as to why it shouldn't but this conversation may lead me to be asking more questions.

[Newbeeee™]

^^^crazy imo but perhaps yodoug could answer being an okuma man?

[gcode]

I just bought a Okuma Genos lathe with a LNS bar feeder that arrived 2 weeks ago. Both the Okuma rep and LNS rep I spoke to said they advise against bolting them down which I thought was odd especially on the bar feeder with a tray design that takes the weight of the material for the feeder all hanging off the back.

 

Neither rep gave me a reason as to why it shouldn't but this conversation may lead me to be asking more questions.

that makes no sense at all.. I've seen a not bolted down bar feed go airborne cause somebody

put a slightly bent piece of bar stock in it. I would never run a bar feed unsecured.

[crazy^millman]

Ask them to give you a 2 year warranty and cover any accident or loss due to it not being bolted down and you will be glad to follow their advice.

 

HTH

[GoetzInd]

You will be re aligning that small bar loader constanly if not bolted down. (I'm assuming bar loader not hydrodynamic bar feeder). I wouldn't worry too much on the small lathe though.

 

Mike

[MrFish]

Lathes, yes due to the nature of them. HAAS mills no, they are no where near dynamic enough to move them selves around due to machining movement and from recent past experience here in Christchurch, New Zealand if you get a large earth quake and they are bolted down they will get damaged, where as if they aren't they just dance across the floor and need repositioning and re levelling :-)

[Alumenium]

Roger

6 years ago i built a small machine shop to run for my new employers, an aircraft completion station. Haas did not recommend i bolt down anything. so i didn't

we have all haas machines a vf2 vf3-yt a gr510 and one sl-30 and some manual machines and are needing to get another vf3. we cut 90% al with a little titanium and 316 and plastics as well. never had a moments trouble.

[within a thou]

Ask them to give you a 2 year warranty and cover any accident or loss due to it not being bolted down and you will be glad to follow their advice.

 

HTH

 

2 year warranty was one thing I negotiated in. Covers everything but the damage from crashes but I have no idea how a bent bar would fly as who is responsible to cover the costs of damage.

 

I asked the reseller to get second third and forth opinions because I am with you i think it should be bolted but have them telling me not to.

 

I haven't unboxed the feeder yet but the linear rails and trucks should cure the tipping due to the long thin footprint of the actual feeder but I have no idea what kind of forces the pusher has nor if it would be enough if the bar ever hit the back of a jaw that was set inproperly. I doubt it could push the machine you would think it would have a load monitor that would alarm out before that would happen.

[Allan]

Not that I agree with anchoring machines down:

 

There is a OSHA requirement for that 1910.212(

"Anchoring fixed machinery. Machines designed for a fixed location shall be securely anchored to prevent walking or moving."

 

https://www.osha.gov...table=STANDARDS

 

 

Most new VMC's I see have the leveling pads epoxied to the floor, due to the high rapid speeds.

[within a thou]

Lathes, yes due to the nature of them. HAAS mills no, they are no where near dynamic enough to move them selves around due to machining movement and from recent past experience here in Christchurch, New Zealand if you get a large earth quake and they are bolted down they will get damaged, where as if they aren't they just dance across the floor and need repositioning and re levelling :-)

 

I never thought about that my shop is located in a seismic zone although in the 6 years out west I am yet to feel even a tremor.

[within a thou]

I just received a email from LNS. Here is their response in regards to the bar feeder.

 

Yes we need to bolt this to the floor. This maintains alignment and prevents the unit from tipping over when the loading rack is loaded with bar

[Newbeeee™]

I'll also add that lathes tend to run a lot more unbalanced than mills. Forget a G50 speed clamp and she'll be dancing around in no time!

Lathes tend to have more interrupted cuts and unbalanced castings or whatever swinging - which causes vibration which causes movement.

Bar feed needs to stay in line or problems occur.

Mills have a part bolted to the bed so the only real forces are the dynamics of the acc/dec of the axes shooting about. The cutter and holder are always balanced where a lathe with a fixture and casting swinging may not be.

To everyone who says don't bolt a mill down, if you retrofitted a pallet shuttle to it you'd do it then - yes?

So that's my logic with a lathe and a barfeed - it's an add on component which must stay in line.

[Machineguy]

I hope we bolt down the new machines, when we get them.

 

Machineguy

[gcode]

Forget a G50 speed clamp and she'll be dancing around in no time!

or hang a Ø1" piece of stainless steel 2 feet out the back of a high speed chucker

and run the spindle up to 7K.

That happened at workmantm's shop ( before his time).

It destroyed a brand new Daewoo chucker.. the machine ran for about 3 minutes while the foreman ran out the front door

around the building and crawled on his belly to the switchbox to kill power.

The back of the machine was demolished. It tore the hydraulic actuator right off, there were pieces of sheet metal

stuck the ceiling and it moved the machine about a foot. They put the machine back together but it never ran right after that.

[Newbeeee™]

or hang a Ø1" piece of stainless steel 2 feet out the back of a high speed chucker

and run the spindle up to 7K.

That happened at workmantm's shop ( before his time).

It destroyed a brand new Daewoo chucker.. the machine ran for about 3 minutes while the foreman ran out the front door

around the building and crawled on his belly to the switchbox to kill power.

The back of the machine was demolished. It tore the hydraulic actuator right off, there were pieces of sheet metal

stuck the ceiling and it moved the machine about a foot. They put the machine back together but it never ran right after that.

ooohhh i'd like to have seen a video of that! I wouldn't like to have been there mind!

Reminds me of a (not very similar) thing a mate witnessed years ago. One of the chaps was working the Colchester (clausing) in the corner of the shop. Brick wall 2 feet behind him and 3 feet to his right (tailstock end). Chuck came off popped and banged on the bed, kicked up and dropped to the floor spinning like fook and then kept spinning and kicking up the wall a foot or so, dropping back down to the floor and spinning/kicking back up the wall again.

The operator was cowering in the corner by the headstock shouting and not knowing what to do 'till the chuck eventually ran out of momentum.

ooohhh I'd have really liked to have seen that

VERY dangerous things are lathes...

[gcode]

VERY dangerous things are lathes...

 

yup.. when I started working here we got in a brand new VTL.

The old school operator didn't like my G50 S80 line and deleted it.

He had 5000 pounds of unbalanced steel on the machine when it rapided to X6"

and maxed the spindle out at 400rpm.

The part blew the doors off, clipped him in the a$$, demolished a couple of tool boxes

a coolant tank for an HBM and slammed into another VTL, shearing the hold down bolts and moving it a foot.

If it hadn't hit the VTL it would have would up in the parking lot mowing though cars.

The operator got about 50 stiches in the back of his leg and a$$, but he's real fond of G50 lines now.

[GoetzInd]

G50? we don't need no stinkin G50's

 

Mike