Matsuura HMC vs Makino HMC?

[Bob W.]

Hi Folks.  I am curious to hear opinions on how these machines stack up against each other.  I have owned Makinos but never a Matsuura.  Things I really like about the Makino are the spindle (super stout and tough) and it has a cooling circuit that cools everything from spindle, to ball screws, to servo mounts.  The Matsuura doesn't have this but it does have scales.  I'd love to hear thoughts or experiences of people familiar with either.

[civiceg]

I would be more worried if your new Matsuura Horizontal would in fact be a Matsuura and not a Quaser.  I have been impressed with this latest import of Quasers (Feeler). But, after dealing with Hardinge (Quasers) a few years back. I don't know if I would spend Japanese Iron money on one. 

 

What size machine are you looking at? 

 

Big fan of Matsuuras BTW, there is a reason shops still have them after 30 years. 

[Bob W.]

500mm.  H.plus 405 or A61nx for Makino

[mkd]

http://www.emastercam.com/board/topic/74850-matsuura-h-plus-405/

http://www.emastercam.com/board/topic/81652-matsuura-h-plus-405/

FWIW^^^

apologies in advance for my "captain obvious" comment:

 any mechanical hair splitting advantage of one vs the other would IMHO be taken up by people having to switch between different machines.

from ordering consumables, service applications and daily operation. so I'd just stick with the awesome Makino brand you got.

 Seems like Makino is THE premium brand in the 400-500mm size.

 

a little off topic but, some interesting commentary here

sounds like there might be a chip auger issue with the 405

[Zoober]

Having had many years with both, I will say they are both world class machines. I was also a Makino apps engineer for 8 years. Dealer, not factory.

Now, that behind, I think you need to evaluate the goal.

Both are accurate machines. The Matsuura has more guts, the Makino will out run a rabbit.

The high speed processing and execution of the Makino is legendary. It cannot be beat for super adjustable machining. As long as you get super G. Fast and accurate, faster and accurate, and super fast and mostly accurate.

But for very accurate, super strong, less fast hogging, the Matsuura would be the choice

[justchips]

MATSUURA have z-axis growth issues even with scales.I work with cublex35 and have worked in the past with mam72. I have no worries interpolating a half thou total tolerance. All three machines had major issues with wine rack toolchangers and pains.

[Newbeeee™]

Bob - you got some more space to fill now and money burning a hole in your pocket

 

IMO with Matsuura going the Quaser route, it HAS to affect things. The 405 was a superb machine but I thought this was being replaces by the 400, which is  a Quaser machine with Matsuura changes (sheet metal, spindle, software).

I think it would be a very brave move to move from Makino now you have an established relationship with them.

 

civicegg - as far as I know, Quaser and Feeler are totally different companies. Feeler is part of the Fair Friend group (also owning Jobbs, Leadwell, Sigma, Ecoca, Takamaz etc) where Quaser is it's own company? Unless they've been bought?

[civiceg]

I maybe incorrect, this information was coming from a salesman....

 

However, there are many similarities between our old Hardinge machines and new Feelers.

[Newbeeee™]

I maybe incorrect, this information was coming from a salesman....

 

However, there are many similarities between our old Hardinge machines and new Feelers.

The old Hardinge/Bridgeport machines were made by Yang and re-badged for Bridgeport.

Then they changed supplier and said they were their own, but were in fact Quasers badged for them.

Now they (Hardinge/Bridgeport) have their own Taiwan facility making both mills and lathes (so I've been told, but not so sure....)

[Sticky]

Only the Hplus 400 and 500 are Quaser built machines, the 300, 405 and 630 are still made in Japan.

 

I'd say the Matsuura spindle is about as stout as it gets, These are long life reliable spindles (not uncommon to go over 30,000hrs).

 

I've never heard of tool matrix problems on any of the Matsuura machines, ours our dead reliable, and so are eveyone elses I know, and that is ranging from the original MAM 1S all the way to the latest horizontals and MAM72's. The Matsuura has really large matrix capacity, I think 40 taper goes up to 520?

 

The physical size of the Matsuura machines are usually quite a bit smaller then then anything else in their class.

 

If you go with the 20k spindle I think you get a spindle cooler, or have they gone grease on those now?

 

Things I like about the Makino hmc over the Matsuura:

-Makino has hands down the best Z axis system on the market, this is an all encompassing statement ranging from the ballscrew layout, the single piece Z axis covers, and the way the covers are sloped so that the chips go straight into the conveyor.

-Makino has a really robost tool change arm, and I love that their tool matrix system keeps the tool tapers covered. The matsuuras, and most other brands leave the tapers exposed, which leads to coolant mist sitting on the tapers which then attracts other things to stick to them.

-The entire interior of the machine is well thought out and designed to not have chips pile up and cause problems.

 

I personally think the Makino is a more refined design, and they have really taken a lot of real world production experience and put it into the design of their machines.

[Newbeeee™]

Only the Hplus 400 and 500 are Quaser built machines, the 300, 405 and 630 are still made in Japan.

 

 

I've never heard of tool matrix problems on any of the Matsuura machines, ours our dead reliable, and so are eveyone elses I know, and that is ranging from the original MAM 1S all the way to the latest horizontals and MAM72's. The Matsuura has really large matrix capacity, I think 40 taper goes up to 520?

 

 

The old place we had a 11 pallet H+300 where the tool matrix blew up. It was just worn out and shooting around at 60 metres/min it was amazingly fast to see.

Mind you, looking back the machine would be 15+ years old now - and it went wrong at around 5 or 6 years.

So any re-design would have gone into the newer models years ago.

[BenK]

I agree with Sticky, both machines are great but the Makino machines have that little bit extra. Overall you wouldn't go wrong either way but since you are already a Makino shop I would recommend the A61. 

[Sticky]

Hmm weird, what do you mean by blew up?

 

Aside from mine, there are a few dozen of these matrix's in my area, never heard of any issues.

[MIL-TFP-41]

Once we got our 405 optioned out It's a great machine. All it was missing was augers and a decent conveyor (such a joke that those were options...)

Crazy accurate...and as far as spindle durability goes...I can say we have 5 Matsuura 20K spindles in the shop and have yet to see one fail (knock on wood). And yes some have been through a "bump" or 3. We have had a 15K spindle fail 3 times....1st time was someone put way lube instead of DTE oil light, 2nd time was due to what I believe was a bad rebuild, and the 3rd time the oil cooler quit working and the machine didn't throw an alarm.

 

I cannot compare speed to a Makino, tho I can say it makes a Mori NH5000 look slow.

 

Never had one problem with the wine rack tool changer that wasn't due to the operator. (hint, don't put a tool in the rack when it is already in the spindle)

 

Control wise the Matsuura tool life management is as straight forward and simple as it gets. I have seen other systems that over complicate what should be a simple thing.

[Slixmix]

Just curious why Mori Seiki is not in the conversation. They have been solid machines for us here for many years.

[Newbeeee™]

Hmm weird, what do you mean by blew up?

 

Aside from mine, there are a few dozen of these matrix's in my area, never heard of any issues.

I had left the company by then, but was told the thing would make the odd 'bang' but no one gave any notice to it (round the back of the machine).

One day it crashed and (again I was told) a linear rail had split and the thing made a right mess. When the techs were stripping it for rebuild, there were lots of things plain worn out.

As I said I wasn't there by then and didn't see it for myself.

What I would say about the machine (H300) it was by far the most productive and accurate machine in the shop. It was superb.

[mkd]

Just curious why Mori Seiki is not in the conversation. They have been solid machines for us here for many years.

guessing; out of respect for the original question asked

 

and the fact that mori is laughably clueless on how to design a y axis way cover.

[specv]

MATSUURA have z-axis growth issues even with scales.I work with cublex35 and have worked in the past with mam72. I have no worries interpolating a half thou total tolerance. All three machines had major issues with wine rack toolchangers and pains.

 

Z axis growth is not just limited to matsuura, we have growth of about .001 to .0015 on our Makino a81 over the course of the day.

[Bob W.]

Z axis growth is not just limited to matsuura, we have growth of about .001 to .0015 on our Makino a81 over the course of the day.

Yes, I have seen the same thing with my A51s.  I developed a probing routine to compensate for it if I need accuracy better than that.  With the probing routing the machine holds dead nuts.

[Bob W.]

Just curious why Mori Seiki is not in the conversation. They have been solid machines for us here for many years.

First, they don't seem to have a good FMS solution and the new machine is coming with a pallet system.  Second, I have heard about a lot of quality issues after they joined up with DMG and I don't have time for that.  Makino and Matsuura are the two machines I would consider to be a cut above.

[MIL-TFP-41]

First, they don't seem to have a good FMS solution and the new machine is coming with a pallet system. 

 

What kind of pallet pool? Something you can add more machines later to or a 1 machine dedicated system?

[Bob W.]

Well it is done.  I have a Makino A61nx (500mm) 12 pallet MMC-2 with two load stations on order and it will be here in two weeks.  It was really tight and Selway came through with some incredible offers for Matsuura machines but I decided to stick with Makino because we already have a few of them and they have been great.  There is only ONE thing more exciting than that going on for me right now but I need to wait until Monday to disclose that :-)

[HYPERTUNE]

Extended Y axis? how many tools? 

[cincy k]

Congrats Bob! Enjoy. 

[metalmansteve]

Bob, you do not mess around. Congratulations!