Dealing with "Prima Donna" Operators

[Don Trust]

I LOVE this thread!

 

We have one NC mill operator that insists on having the program start at the back of the machine so the cutter doesn't pass over the top of the piece on it's way to the start point. Not a big deal, but he's a fanatic about it. For some reason he thinks that the cutter is somehow going to magically hit the piece during one of the starts, even though it's 2" above during the pass over.

 

He will refuse to use any program that has the cutter passing over the top during start/stop.

 

Same guy insists on cutter comp at the machine even when the part has ±.020 tolerance and we know what cutter he's going to use. About once a year he asks me if he can have cutter comp on a 3D surface program. I always answer "soon as you cough up about $200,000 for a new machine".

 

Does make the day interesting, though.

[john316]

.

 

quote:

---

How long were you a machinist? And how many years total have you worked in this profession? Or is it 25 years total? If so, that would explain it.

Just playing, John. But for some reason I have to know! LOL

---

10+8+7=25

 

Next riddle:

The 8 yrs in the middle were overlapping. How many years total on a machine and how many years total programming.

 

I really get ticked off at some guys who want everything changed for their personal preference, but I know if I stay cool and look at the request from the proper perspective, when I tell them to STICK IT, I will be able to back it up with sound reasoning.

 

.

[smokey_44]

When I was programming for my last place(when I first started) I would make the program then send it out ,when they went to run the program this one guy DEREK ,would love to run the tools in different order that I programmed them ???!!!,Well when the boss heard he was breaking cutters all the time guess who he blames ? I coulnd not take this anymore so I asked him to come to the shop when this guy was running and watch what he was doin.... Boy did he get his A** reamed good. Then after the boss was done with him ,then I took a turn at kicking the cat. Fianly he smarted up and PRESTO no more broken tools..

 

 

Dave Ferraro

[terry5357]

I tell them to come with me. I take them to my office and tell them "there's the chair redo it the way you want it, and while you are doing that I will go get me a diet coke (I'm diabetic). What you want will take me about 15 minutes but I'm sure that you can't even do it at all, so you can explain to your supervisor why you want me to change a perfectly good program, and while you are telling him that you can explain the princepal and proceedures behing your thinking just like I do when you get your setup sheet and program. Have to make it right for the next guy that runs it, you understand that , don't you"

 

Then I turn around and head for the coke machine.

 

One time an operator I did that to went to the owner and told him what I did, the owner told him "why do you think I pay him $20 more an hour than I pay you, cause he's stupid? Now get your xxxx back out on that machine or pach your f**king sh*t and hit the clock. That really cut that kind of stuff down to almost nothing. Man the operators were scared to ask me dang setup sheet much less to make a change in the program.

And by the way I didn't make $20 more an hour that that guy.......it would be nice

[Hardmill]

quote:

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And by the way I didn't make $20 more an hour that that guy..

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More like $21

 

 

PEACE

[Rick Henrickson 65]

i found a couple guys that i enjoy working with so much. They are great about telling you things that didnt work or extra rotations and then I fix the mcam file so if need to repost everything is current. P.S. when I swithch jobs it is a package deal they come with.

[Guest SAIPEM]

What really ticked me off is that that I still do machining.

My toolboxes are still out in the shop.

 

I also personally service the machines when they break.

 

I've got 3 GREAT setup guys and operators.

I got lots of USEFUL input from them.

This old xxxx is just big baby.

The best part today was when the production manager actually backed me up and explained to guy who was the boss and exactly what HIS responsiblities were.

He actually laughed when I told my retort about the pacifier.

 

I'd love to know how Bob Henninger would have handled it.

[LaszloK]

I don't know how big your shop is but I was in a similar situation once. We had 4 programmers and 10 machinists. It got to the point where you had to know which machinist was going to get the job so you wouldn't have interupt what you were working on and make the changes (the shop foreman had more pull than the engineering manager). The engineering manager came up with a plan for short 15-30 minute discussions every week between the programmers and machinists. We discussed "best in class" methods for various operations, set-ups, etc. A couple of things were amazing. Firstly, we were able to develope standards that everyone was able to live with. Secondly, it is interesting how these machine people will back down from their "it HAS to be done this way" attitude when in a discussion with their co-workers. I think programmers and machinists both benefit from this and the time spent on these short meetings saved a lot of down time for the company.

[Guest]

We had this one guy, he was :cough: the best guy on the floor :cough:, who would single block an entire program no matter how big or how small. It got so bad several of the other machinists would do the theme from "Close Encounters" whenever he was proving out a program. He was one of those, it has to be done this way kind of guys and I'd humor him to a point.

 

Well about a year ago he put in for a job in another department, we only get to hear the theme occasionally now.

 

Usually involves one of the noobs.

 

Took awhile but I finally got them to the point where they trust what I am doing and the information I provide.

 

In all my years on machines, when working with other programmers, I had a couple VERY good ones and a couple, shall we say, questionable one's.

 

This one guy, he was terrible, if I downloaded his program, I generally deleted it and wrote it myself. I got into a couple of battles but I always stood my ground. I told one owner, if I wasn't making money for him I wouldn't be there, you want me to leave I'll leave, you want your parts, leave me alone and you'll get your parts.

 

He sat down, shook his head and said, I quote "I have no control here", I told him Karl, I'm here because I am making you money, you usually don't question me, let him grump and I'll get done what you need. He left, came back the next day, amazed that I cut 20% off of the job compared to history.

 

I got an "attaboy" and for the next 2 yrs never question what or how I did it again.

 

If you're a guy on the floor, you better know not only what you want but why you want it and most of all WHY it's better and be able to back it up.

 

Saying because that's the way I like it doesn't cut it.

[crazy^millman]

Well I perosnally worked with John316 and I would put him against anyone I have ever met doing this or is doing this. He knows his Shi? just like Gcode another guy that I have worked side by side with and another person that knows his stuff. I am ok, but they guys are great!!!!

 

At the last place I threaten to bring in a Big box of Depends and some pacfiers. John316 has some real winners and I have seen him handle himself just find with some if I had my way would have been fired, but since I did not part of the reason I am no longer there. Set the job up look for possbile programs and once it is running run the damn job period, not pick .1 moves aparts becuase you want .15 clearence moves, or you want the machine to pick your xxxx for you becuase you are so damn lazy you cant. Hate that crap. I had a 36 hour running program and one of the guys there was not happy about 3 air cuts and wanted me to stop everything to find where there where and get them out of the program. I told him to learn Mastercam and then he could od it his damn self!!!!!!!!!

[gcode]

I've had my share of difficult operators.

Crazy Millman could tell you a story or 2

I'm currently the FNG at a place with a reputation for chewing up programmers.

When you've been at a shop for a while and have made your bones, you can yell, "Push the fu&*ing button!" and it will probably be OK.

When you're an FNG in a dog eat dog shop that's a really bad idea.

I guarantee you, the machine will crash and who are they going to believe, the FNG or the 10 year operator???

I've found that including the operator in the programming proccess can help smooth the waters.

Invite him into the office, show him what you're doing and ask his opinion and advice. He'll probably tell you a few things you never thought of and its now a team effort.

Programming can be a very tough profession.

I don't care how good you are, an advisarial relationship with the operators is going to make things that much harder.

No matter how good you are, you will make mistakes. If you blow an approach move in the middle of a million lines of surfacing, no one is going to catch it, but if Mastercam throws a G43H0 into a tool change, a good operator will catch it.

If you just screamed "Push the fu*&ing button!!"

at him, he's going to look at that H0, smile

and push the button.

[Justin Beebe at Folsom Tool]

I think that the programmer always has the final say in how the job should be programmed. Thats why they are the programmer. They should be open minded enough to listen to the operators and set up guys when they have valid reasons or good ideas. Set up guys and operators need to be more flexible than the programmer because their job is mainly just to keep the machine running. If they want to program their way they should get a job as a programmer. Most people in this industry think they know everything and that their way is always best from the guy who sweeps the floor on up to the owner. I have learned many different ways to do things because I have an open mind, but if something worked before with one operator there is no reason to change things around just because there is a new operator.

[gcode]

Look at it from the operators perspective.

1. The operator makes $X/hour

The programmer maks $(X x 1.4)/hour (at least)

2. Its 108° in the shop this afternoon

Its 72° in the engineering office and the

programmer is whining about freezing his butt

off.

3. The operator has been standing on his feet for

30 years and they freaking hurt!!!

The programmer's index finger has a twinge.

4. The machine just spit a gallon of rotten

coolant on the operator

The programmer's jelly donut just sprung a

leak

 

No wonder those guys don't like us

[Matthew]

Being a small shop (2 person) all the programs I write are setup and run off (at least the first few pieces) by me. Of the occasional programs I have done for other shops, I always call them over and show them step by step the backplot/verify of the part being cut, explaining what it is doing and why I've done it that way. Sometimes that is great for them, other times they have other ideas which I incorporate. Like Gcode said, now it becomes a team effort, everyone has had their input into the program being posted. Any changes after the fact then are not the fault of the programmer only, they become a combined effort to improve the process. I can't speak for larger shops with multiple programmers and lots of machines. This could be time consuming, but it can't hurt to at least give a brief explaination of what's going on to the setup guys (or operators if they are also setting up the machine).

 

My .02, take it for what it's worth, if anything!

[Tinny]

I can identify with this situation. I had one guy who would regularly say the programs were rubbish, or not good even if a good part came off - saying " I dont like how it does that!". I would ask what he would do instead, but he would never give any good ideas himself.

 

Another guy would edit out bits in the program to remind himself at a later date that he had editted that program. He would quite often edit at the retract heights when the program ran ok as it was, and would sometimes miss the decimal points causing the machine to crash. Sometimes he would get a good part off after proving out a new program and then edit it with mistakes for a operator on the next shift to come in and run. If a feed rate was too fast for him ( even if it ran ok ) he would spend quite a few hours editting all the feedrates slower!! Needless to say this guy is now in other employment within the company and lost all the overtime that he enjoyed doing.

 

Even with all his obvious failings he thought he was really good, and anything we posted out was never perfect.

[kinglouie V]

quote:

---

I'm currently the FNG at a place with a reputation for chewing up programmers.

---

I've worked in that place! you'll love it.

[Tim Johnson]

I have a few guys that give me grief. (Actually we grind on each other) I once told one of my fellow programmers that I was going to ask one of the operators how I should do a job and this is how he'll tell me to do it. I took the job to him and ask him how, and after hearing his way I kept asking questions about some feature on the part untill he "told" how it should be run (just like I stated before). Then he confided with the other programmer that I couldn't even figure out part processes.

[Hardmill]

quote:

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Then he confided with the other programmer that I couldn't even figure out part processes.

---

Id call him on that one, and tell him you were doing it for his benefit.

Then explain how your going to do it the way you want from now on.

 

 

 

PEACE

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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... Its 72° in the engineering office and the programmer is whining about freezing his butt

off...

---

I don't whine, I just put my sweatshirt on.

 

I'm really lucky. Where I work now, the guys are all real easy to get along with. They don;t make any comments unless something does not work. They ask a lot of questions(which is great because I get to go back over things to make sure I did not miss anything), but I'm new and they are getting used to the way I do things, and I'm getting used to the way they like things. They are a great group. Fortunately for me, they do a lot of things I've done for years and the transition has not been as difficult as they could be.

 

At the last place I worked full time, there was this guy Chuy (pronounced Chew-ee). He was the biggest PITA Setup guy I have ever dealt with. He ALWAYS wanted changes regardless if the program made good parts for me or for someone else. He kept "his" programs on floppys in his tool box. He routinely ran wrong rev parts... If he were my employee, he would not be my employee if you know what I mean.

[Tim Johnson]

That was a year or so ago. The other programmer sucked it all in then told the other operators what was going on. Needless to say, he's still catches heck about that one.

 

Actually I get along with the operators for the most part and they all know if they do have problems they can just come in and we'll fix it together.

[PeterM]

Quote

"why do you think I pay him $20 more an hour than I pay you, cause he's stupid? Now get your xxxx back out on that machine or pack your f**king sh*t and hit the clock"

 

I sure wish my boss had that attitude. I started my career as an operator, I'm pretty sure that the majority of programmers(at least the good ones) also came up through the ranks. My supervisor/programmer routinely sent down programs with errors in them, got all bent out of shape when ANYTHING was changed, and then deleted the changes made so that every reorder was an adventure. I never went behind his back and complained to HIS boss, I fixed what was wrong with or without his help. Now that I am in his shoes I get to see the truly STUPID things that some "know it alls" come up with. I've had several through the years and they invariably go behind my back and complain about this or that to my boss, a knowlegable and hard working individual who should know better than to deal with those guys, but he does. As a result, my authority is lessened, my bosses available time is shortened, and what did the set up guy truly gain? my ire.

_____________________

Peter Martin

mcam 3... - x mr2 - mill level 3

Senior Programmer/Milling Supervisor

Preci Mfg.

400 Weaver St. Winooski VT 05468

PH# 802-655-2487 ext. 231

email [email protected]

[b_daddy]

All this sounds way to familar. No matter what we program, someone is not going to like it, mostly because of personal preference. There is one guy here that no matter what you do he has to change something. Maybe that is why we call him "Tinkerbell" cause he always has to tinker with the program.

[Guest]

I can sure relate to this. am averaging programming each job at least twice to get it done. boss tells me how he wants it done I give my two cents (dont know why i bother) they arent very open minded any way hits the floor and what do ya know need to program it a different way (first program usually would make a good part) but every one has to have it there way.

just glad Im not the one paying the bills.

 

can you say frustration.

oh and theres plenty of finger pointing-back stabbing etc. Im just doing what im told.

 

hang in there

[Colin Gilchrist]

Gosh, I'm so happy these days....

 

I've worked in shops with very difficult people before so I can relate, but the culture at Boeing doesn't really tolerate closed minds these days. People still have their quirks of course, but having a set of guidelines in place about behavior, set procedures for how things are supposed to be run, and having a good team attitude are the Norm at Boeing, not the execption....

 

 

Sometimes I do miss having total control over every aspect of programming a job, but after listening to everyone talk about their operator issues I'm going to shut my mouth and count my blessings....

 

 

Colin Gilchrist

The Boeing Company

MR2 and Beta test site

[Camdude®]

"4. The machine just spit a gallon of rotten

coolant on the operator

The programmer's jelly donut just sprung a

leak"

i hate it when that happens.

i taught Mastercam for 10 yrs so i was a little rusty getting back into it. if i didn't listen to my operators i probably would have crashed the machine a time or two.

i have some really good guys here but like every shop i have a wanna-be programmer that dissects every program sent to him. doesn't matter how long the code is he'll spend hours reading over it before he loads into the machine. makes a career out of set-up time. can't do much about it as this is a union shop and guess who has the most seniority?