Looking for higher end cam package

[Joels]

anybody use camworks with solidworks for machining?

[Yogesh K. Raman]

quote:

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camworks with solidworks for machining?

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it gives you auto feature regconization for toolpathing... and use your SW design to do toolpath without exporting.... but I wouldn't rate that as high-end or anything close to CAM TOOL.

[sharles]

This may be slightly off topic, but I've found that if I make sure mc is happy with ALL my surfaces, it can cut down processing time in half. Sometimes I'll have files with 10,000 surfaces. If I run a 1/4" ball, surface leftover program and watch at the very beginning when it is reading surface boundaries (at the bottom left of the screen), if it stays on a particular surface for more than 5-10 seconds I hit "esc" change the color of that surface at the prompt. Then go in and fix that surface (sometimes mc simply doesn't like vertical surfaces and I'll move them to another level). If I remember to do that leftover program FIRST until mc quickly runs through ALL my surface boundaries, all my processing times will be significantly cut down.

 

Back to the actual question, I had used Work NC for 3 or 4 years but once I got used to mc, I haven't been back to Work NC since (about 2 years now). I want a complete deal, and though Work NC had some cool cam features that I wish mc did, if I had any surface problems, or cut outs, pockets, etc. that needed to be covered while 3d machining Work NC at the time couldn't do it. I know they're trying to integrate their cad but at this point I'm happy with mc and probably won't go back.

[gcode]

New kid in town

 

Look out cam world

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...The team behind HSMWorks has been delivering advanced CNC toolpath technology to customers worldwide for the past 10 years through 3rd party CAM vendors and resellers. However, due to constraints in their architecture and user interface, existing CAM systems were unable to take full advantage of our advanced toolpath technology...

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:smack:

[Redfire427]

Today I had the rep in for WorkNC and we intalled the software and he gave me a walk through. Once that was done we tried to reprogram a job that I had just finished cutting in Mastercam. First we tried to import the model from ProE and it failed. Lots of missing surfaces. I went back to engineering and had them export an iges file and that seemed to work fine. We set up the toolpaths to the same parameters that I had programmed in MC and timed the processing time for the entire job. The time was almost identical to MC. Much to my surprise. It seems like WorkNC has almost identical toolpaths and abilities to MC. There was a neat feature which I wish MC had. It has the ability to tell you how much extention you need to stick out of the toolholder in order to cut the job with no collisions. I also liked a couple of other things but nothing that I could justify the premium price tag. I think on a large automotive die with 10000 surfaces is where it might beat MC. I will continue to test with it before I jump to conclusions.

 

Daniel: posting is not an issue for us. Our MC reseller customised a fanuc post for us. Our issue is more of an overall processing issue. Again, only about 1% of our work is 2D.

 

Jeff Kemper: My hardwate is Pentium D dual core, 3 Ghtz, 2G ram, 256 video card ( can't remember brand) running XP

 

Sharles: Thanks for the tip. I usually test the surfaces or solid first in analize and then proceed from there. I have found that if a surface is " irregular " not necessarily bad that will cause MC to slow down considerably.

 

CNC Apps Guy: I disagree with you on the import of ProE files in X2MR1. We use ProE Wildfire 3 and I see no difference. We use to import Wildfire 2 into MC version 9 no problem. I think it is just a case where the translator has not been updated to the current version of ProE.

 

Gcode, Joels, Yogesh and others: The high speed toolpaths now found in X2 and Solidworks are directly taken from NC Graphics ( Depocam ) They are 90% the same and even have the same descriptions and terminology. I recently used Depocam while on a siesta last summer from my current job. MC does a great job with these but I would say Depocam is a little more refined. Depocam also has no 2D or cad ability. I suppose CNC Software is under a license agreement or bought the toolpaths or something.

 

I have Camtool coming on Thursday so it will be interesting to see what they offer. Hypermill and Powermill will follow and possibly Visi.

 

[ 03-20-2007, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Prosin Molds ]

[ak762]

When I looked at pictures of strategy and contacts:

HSMWorks ApS

Copenhagen, Denmark

 

very similar it one of Cimco HSM clone

[Roger Peterson]

the check holder chook will tell you how long your tool needs to stick out to cut the part. Or you can have it break up a toolpath into multiple toolpaths using different length tools.

 

 

HTH

[Watcher]

quote:

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Daniel: posting is not an issue for us. Our MC reseller customised a fanuc post for us. Our issue is more of an overall processing issue. Again, only about 1% of our work is 2D.

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Hi Prosin,

 

Thank you for your feedback about your tests and initial experiments. Please keep us informed about the progress of your tests with another systems. This is a very interesting subject, specially concerning the performance and efficiency of the latest toolpath algorithms used in the current systems in the market, and I do believe that lots of people here would appreciate some stats about them. At least me.

Altough eMastercam has a lot of "Zealots", (as me), in another hand we have here a bunch of specialists and very skilled professionals, sharing with us a bit of their knowledge, absolutely for free. Furthermore, the brains of CNC software shows up here sometimes, and in the most of cases, being unpartial about the topic in question. I have read in other CAD/CAM forums in the net that the "Zealots" around here sometimes transcend the limits of logic. I do agree. But Mastercam is also a passion. I personally did commit some mistakes in the past due to this passion. I agree that sometimes the passion comes first, but these peoples are only being grateful with a software that saves their a$$es daily. And trust me, Mastercam does that, as it did that for me in the past. (Did I mention that I´m a zelot?)

I have no doubts that this place is the best CAM resource over the Internet, being useful for CAD/CAM users of all CAM systems throughout the world..., is just a question of humility to recognize that. That does not mean that Mastercam (the software/product) is the best system. Means that its forum is the best. Period.

 

Well, about posting, I have no doubts that currently you have no post issues, and that your claims are not related to posting speed. My comment was intended to inform you that maybe, adding for instance Cimco HSM, you would keep your CAM plataform, acquired knowledge, experience, hardware and posts, and whatever you got by using MC. With a new CAM solution, maybe you shall decrease your calculations time, but maybe too, you could start to experience problems with your G-code output, once that there are just a few guys of high-end world that really domains post mods in their products and are able to extract all the potential of their CAM systems and your machines.

But if you are missing some high end features in the CAD side of Mastercam, as BOM lists, assemblies, powerful drafting, analysis, then, surely, a new CAD/CAM solution is the way to go.

But if not, if a good CAM system is a must, then you are in good hands with Mastercam. In another high-end solution you gonna see lots of things that are better compared to Mastercam, as full setup definition (With all clamps and fixtures being shown during verification), holder allowance (As you did mention in Work-NC), high detailed blueprints of the setup, and so on. But surely you will miss some Mastercam features. It´s up to you to decide what is most important for you.

 

JM2C

[Redfire427]

quote:

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The check holder chook will tell you how long your tool needs to stick out to cut the part. Or you can have it break up a toolpath into multiple toolpaths using different length tools.

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I had my Mastercam reseller in here today and they install X2 MR1 to see if it would resolve some of my issues. They showed me this c-hook that I was unaware of and I will try this function out. Thanks for the response Roger.

[crazy^millman]

Not to be an arse here, but there are tons of this information on this forum. Knowledgeable people with all types of experience and qualifications are on the forum from all parts of the world willing to share and help. I think you will be hard pressed to find a better forum for manufacturing that to me helps me in being able to support Mastercam. I have almost tripled my salary in the last 10 year thanks to Mastercam and sorry but that goes along way with me.

[Mic]

For 2D MasterCAM and EdgeCAM rules.

For 3D PowerMILL, Tebis and hyperMILL are awsome.

For 5X hyperMILL is the leader.

 

Except Tebis I've tried them all and they all have some very nice function's. The best overall system ( 2D to 5X ) is clearly hyperMILL, but also the most expensive.

 

My 2 cent's.

[Redfire427]

Just thought some of you would be interested in an update on my progress of evaluating "higher end cam packages". Since my last entry, I have evaluated Camtool, ProManufacturing and Hypermill.

 

Let's start with Camtool. It does not support ProE files anymore. They stopped support after Wildwire 2 and have discontinued their converter and are currently working on a Step converter that will be released at end of May. So we had to use Iges as the file type which for me was a cause for concern. The software has a lot of nice features and performed as per my expectations. Processing time was quite good but the thing that all of these systems that I am evaluating have that Mastercam does not is that they generate their toolpaths in the background while still giving you 100% access to the interface to continue programming the next operation, etc. Most of these system can operate in a 64 bit operating system and are multi-threaded. The Camtool toolpaths were very good but still not quite what I wanted to see. I went one step further and cut a test piece. First, I programmed the part in Mastercam with the absolute best strategies, small steps, small tolerance, etc, and cut the finished part. In total it took 1hour 50 minutes to rough and finish. I then worked with the Camtool rep and we programmed their software and used very similar strategies with exactly the same tools, feeds, speeds, etc. so we could compare apples to apples. I cut their part and it took exactly one hour longer on the machine. With the naked eye, it is somewhat difficult to see any major differences in part quality. However, when a 40X loupe is used, there is no comparison. The Camtool part is far superior. The tool strike marks are absolutely consistent in the along direction and well as the across direction. Blending is perfect. The Mastercam part has a great deal of grooves or striations on the surface. Keep in mind that we are probably talking about .0001 or less. I would say that 99% of the cases, the Mastercam part would be just fine. So, I guess I have to decide which is more important to me, surface finish or machine run time.

 

Next on my list was ProManufacturing from ProE ( PTC ). Obviously, opening a ProE file is a no-brainer. After a brief walk through of the software, I was somewhat impressed with a couple of the toolpaths. It wasn't long after that, the train quickly derailed. It was very difficult and time consuming to do some simple tasks that we would normally perform on a file before we start programming toolpaths. For example, covering ejector pin holes or capping openings where you do not want to cut. Soon thereafter, the software kept crashing and we never got a single toolpath out. The reps left with my test part file and their tail between their legs and said they would work on it and get back to me. Its been nearly 3 weeks and nothing but silence.

 

Next was Hypermill. After a complete overview of their software, it became apparent that this software is quite good. It comes at a premium price because it "should" be used inside a Cad package which adds to the cost. It can be used as a stand alone product, but it is preferred if it is used inside any of the conventional Cad systems available. There is no doubt that their 5-axis functionality is where few can compete. It opened the ProE file with no problems and we started programming the test part. Again, we tried to duplicate the same or similar cutting conditions that I created in Mastercam. I was a little disappointed with the processing time and also some of the lead-in, lead-outs and transitions. Not a make or break issue but it could be improved. Toolpaths were good however one toolpath failed and the rep took it with him to see if he could figure out why. This was only today so I expect I will hear from him soon. Perhaps we will also cut the test part to compare surface finish and run time. We'll see.

 

Although my testing is not complete and I don't want to jump to any conclusions, there are a couple of things that are emerging. None of the systems stand out as a clear winner or one that I could justify a major purchase. They all have their strengths and weaknesses as some of the other posts suggest. I would like to see Mastercam take advantage of some of the new computing technologies that are available to satisfy demanding customers like myself. It would probably not be very cost effective for them as the "average" user of Mastercam does not have the same demands as our company. If a perfect part is your highest criteria, Camtool is the one as it does not use a triangulated mesh to calculate from like all of the other systems. Very impressive and costly. Perhaps it would also require a "bad-xxxx" computer to really make it perform.

 

Hopefully I will find the time to look at Powermill and also follow up with the others to address some of my observations and finally draw some conclusions.

 

This process has been extremely time consuming and mentally draining. It sure would be nice to have some knowledge to see what direction Mastercam is going or what is a priority to them.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

CATIA has an awesome toolpath that works VERY well for your type of application. Mind you the price tag is stiff, the learning curve is horrendous and Post Processing is a byotch but if you want a simple single toolpath that can do almost anything, well, this particular path in CATIA is bretty bitchen. My rants against CATIA are ledgendary (in my own mind at least), but

[gcode]

I would give Catia a try before you made a final decision. I'm surprised that Hypermill didn't do better. Have you thought of trying the Cimco High Speed milling add-on for Mastercam. People who use it swear by it.

I had a 30 day trial license but my work schedule prevented me from giving it a through trial.

This is a facinating subject, thanks for the update.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...I would give Catia a try before you made a final decision...

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Like a 6 month trial. It's a REAL bear.

[Ed@Elite]

I would consider either Powermill or CamTool. They are both excellent CAM programs for your Makino. I personally use Powermill with our

S-56 Makino's.

[pronc]

Quote:

 

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......This process has been extremely time consuming and mentally draining.....

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I agree but you haven't seen nothing yet until you try to implement the new software.

I also agree with James regarding Catia trial. Something like Catia, Pro/nc or UG you just can't use 30 trial to evaluate. Just a month ago I had a P.O on my desk for Catia implementation. I talked my way out of it. Not because Catia is not a good software but because of so much time and effort that involves. I had Catia pushed back to the end of the year.

[Keith @ Solid Code Solutions]

quote:

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FYI watcher the HSM stuff in Mastercam now is the Cimco HSM stuff.

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I believe that the new high speed portion in Matercam X is not based on the CIMCO HSM but rather "VISI's Machining Stratigist". This also holds true for SolidCAMs and CAMWorks High Speed Machining Modules. From what I have seen SolidCAM Module is still more advanced than what Mastercam has to offer.

 

quote:

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Cimco HSM has the adaptive clearing strategy. I downloaded the demo. Very Cool roughing tool paths with unbelievable feedrates possible.

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Refering to HSMWorks?

[Steve Hattori]

+1 on the Cimco HSM add-on. Espcially for the price... I do a lot of 3d surfacing as well, and have the same issues with MC processing times. The new HMM toolpaths look very similar to Cimco's, but take 4-5 times longer to calculate. I've ended up using Cimco almost exclusively for 3d stuff. I have not tried any of the high-end programs mentioned here, so I cannot make any comparisons.

As mentioned, you can try a 30-day demo with all of the features available. The adaptive clearing is worth the price alone..

[Gilberto]

We also had the surface finish problem on a few mold customers.

To have a better finish parts with Mastercam,

Cut with 0.001mm tolerance and NO Filter.

This fixed the problem.

[andrewgore]

I tried out worknc late last year. While their toolpaths worked well, "prepping" the part for machining was a bit of a pain. If you needed to do any sort of 2d work, good luck imo. Not only that, but we were told that they could make a great post for our Heidenhain control.....what a surprise when the guy that tried making it while here couldn't. not only this, but he had never used the programs trochoidal toolpaths before. Seriously not even joking. This more or less did it in for me. The "techy" guy didn't know the software.

 

I did like the fact that it could generate toolpaths in the background. Mastercam needs to get off their butts and make their software actually utilize the capabilities of computers that are out nowadays.

 

I am going to give this cimco-hsm stuff a try out here. I spent about an hour waiting for a toolpath (1mm endmill in 56rc steel) only to see the error "no valid cutting zone". Gotta love it. Especially that white screen.

 

Andrew

 

edit: I should note that we have not been able to get a post that works as well as it "should" for our Heidenhain Atek HS Plus control for mastercam either. Part of this is due to the lack of available information on the control itself.

[Roger Peterson]

+1 Gilberto. NO FILTER! I think the term "filter" explains why.

 

I think most everyone would agree that Mastercam has very good toolpaths, roughing and finishing, that yield very good finishes. If you add adaptive clearing for very efficient roughing of hardened material it is very robust. Mastercam works directly off the surface data, not a stl file (calculating off of an stl file is much faster but can introduce tolerancing/finish issues). So calculation time is a valid concern when working with large files. Even so, Mastercam may be slower than some, not any slower than most, and faster than some.

 

I think the use of operation libraries (have sets of ops preset with parameters so you don't have to regen something because of a missed stock to leave value) and the re-discovery of toolpath batch processing (right click in the ops manager and hit "batch") calculation time would be more of a non issue.

 

 

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Let your pc calculate toolpaths from many different files while on lunch or at home sleeping.

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It can give you more flexability, if you are not sure how you want to finish an area or part, setup a couple of options and batch them overnite and see what you like better. It's a great tool I cannot live without.

 

edit:

All that being said, bring on the support for dual processors!!!

 

JM2C

[Müřlıń®]

quote:

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Mastercam works directly off the surface data, not a stl file (calculating off of an stl file is much faster but can introduce tolerancing/finish issues).

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Working with gapped, faucated files or STL's that have been converted to pologon surf models are one reasons for the filter and one of Mastercam's strong points....

 

When you have perfectly tangent solids, there is no need for filter except for filesize.

Not using the filter on .001" tolerance will result in 10 times the amount of code, no circular blocks.

 

Some of the file transfer programs used by alot of shops like Unix based systems are slow and filesize is a concern for some using their networks to send code to the floor.

 

 

Older machines may have a problem running 3-axis point to point @ high feedrates, they will studder all over the place..

 

It all depends on what type of work you do.

 

About 90% of the machining done would be better served by using the filter and looser tolerances..but the surf isnt going to look like a ground finish either

[YoDoug®]

Nope, I wasn't meaning HSMWorks. I was meaning the Cimco-hsm chook for MCX. You can download a 30 day trial with the Adaptive clearing.

 

http://www.cimco-hsm.com/index.php?page=front