Horizontals vs. verticles?

[Tim Johnson]

I'm asking this based upon operator ease of use. We purchased three new FADALs to replace the three we had and they are a worse POS than they were before. The price for a "real" verticle is just a little less than we pay for our horizontals. The concern here is that there is more imtimidation with the horizontals and thus have more setup time with the simpler parts. The complex and higher quantity parts are already on the horizontals. Would you agree with this type of thinking?

[john316]

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Yes, I think the vertical would be a simpler set-up.

 

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[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

 

Sorry, john316 but I don't buy into that line of thinking for 2 seconds. The only reason it's even remotely intimidating is because the spindle is rotated to the horizontal position. You can run a horizontal EXACTLY the same way you would run a vertical, you won't take advantage of all the capabilities that the machine can give you doing it that way but IMNSHO the ONLY reason to buy a VMC is because the work won't fit on your horizontal. Get a 4 sided double vise tower from Chick, Kurt, Toolex, etc... and there you go. You have your vertical. I'll contend it's MUCH BETTER than a VMC AND LESS SETUP TIME that a VMS because if you keep the tools in the tool magazine you don;t have to re-set them up. Use the same tools in multiple jobs. Very simple. It just requires a retraining of your mind... "... horizontals are not intimidating... horizontals are not intimidating...... horizontals are not intimidating...... horizontals are not intimidating..."

 

JM2C

[jeff]

I've never ran a horizontal, always verticals.

I would think that gravity would be a bigger factor?

For coolant and chip evac and maybe even setting the part in the vise squarely?

[Todd Tracey from Fastech]

Where I worked previously, we did a lot of fairly deep mold type shapes, with a horizontal, the chips would have been a lot easier to keep out of the way and not keep recutting them and screwing up tools. JMHO

[Storkman]

They both have their place. Personally I prefer horizontals.

[Scott Garrison@Weiler Engineering]

Verticals have the advantage in that gravity is working for you as far as workholding goes.

 

On the other hand, on a horizontal when drilling, tapping etc. gravity helps in chip evacuation since they are far less likely to fall back in.

 

As far as set-up goes, I don't see how it is more difficult except for what I mentioned here 1st.

 

If you have a 4th axis on a vertical, you basically have a horizontal laying on it's side.

 

I would say the complexity is only added if you are using a 4th axis.

 

I would also add that any vise-work would be a pain on a horizontal again due to gravity. (Unless you buy the kurt/chick fixturing mentioned above)

[specv]

I would rather set-up our horizontals, I like to get close to the work when dialing in fixtures, also if there is run in the fixture you can use the B axis to take it out instead of shimming/or recutting the fixtures. I also don't like leaning over(with the spindle above my head), not to mention working on a pallet outside of the machine( if you have a pallet changer on a vertical i guess this is not really an advantage)

[MLS]

If you spend the money to do it right with good quality tooling I think there would be very little difference in set-up time and the benefits of machining on a horizontal make it an easy choice over a vertical.

 

If you are running one-off parts and your tooling is based on the "spend as little as possible" mentality, I would tend to say it is easier to set-up a vertical.

[Tim Johnson]

I'm on the horizontal side of the fence myself. The only "relative" imtimidation would be machining left side planes since the tool will disappear behind the clustertowers/tombstones. The setup/tooling sheets give the operators everything they need to know and the programs get run thru Vericut so there should be no imtimidation fron the program itself.

 

BUT I have never personally run a horizontal and it's been nineteen years for the verticles so I thought I would ask those who do.

[Troy Gossett Indepak Inc.]

Tim I think you answered your own question, the key is that you simplify the setups on the the parts you are giving you setup headaches either through the use of a tombstone with vises like mentioned above or by creating a fixture that meets your needs. As far as the intimidation factor goes, find out who wants to run the new machines and you will find the one who is willing to learn a new way of doing things. I think many times people give the guy with seniority the first crack at a new machine without asking or considering they are perfectly happy doing it the way they always have.

 

In the long run I think you'll find that gravity removing the chips for you allows the horizontal machines to run unattended for very long cycles, and the longer the cycle the less significant the setup time becomes.

[tryon]

I prefer horizontal also. Two negatives though are short cycletime parts and picking up offsets.

 

cycle times of a minute or two make it a pain to load since you index the pallet in and out, open doors, rotate pallet, pick up vise handle, close doors then press button. Or you are leaning into the machine loading parts with the pallet still in killing your operators(or your own) back.

 

If you dont have a probe picking up offsets with an indicator or edgefinder can get old real quick.

[daryl_y]

Horizontals please We were an all vertical shop until my employer bought 2 new Mazak 6800 horizontals this year. If the job is of any quanity at all they will run circles around any of our other vertical mills. Sure they can be a pain to set-up

and they are sometimes (a little) more trouble to program but you can easily make the time up. Just think if could only have 1 mill in your shop (besides a 5axis) it would be a horizontal.

[Greg_J]

Horizontals also have another benifit not mentioned above. On a big Kuraki I use to run I could drill hole 51 inches deep but the max I went was 48 inches, not to mention the quill which could extend another 27 inches.

The only thing to watch is your sleaves when working with them,

don't reach over the spindle.

 

Greg

[Randy Morton @ Clem Industrial]

Tim,

 

When I first started working on horizontals I felt the same thing you are talking about. Intimidation. I was unsure/unclear of how the machine was going to respond because I had been on a vertical for so long. The guys made fun of me for the first little while cause they would catch me with my head turned to the side trying to 'see' what I thought it would do. At this point in time, I would much rather work on a horizontal then vertical. More fun, more possibilites, typically (but not always) strong machines, more tools, more possibilities. And, depending on what you are doing you have the pallet option for what rotation it will do. Full rotary or just indexing. Both of which are bring their own game to the feild. =]

 

HTH

 

Greg, why did I know before I click your siggy that you work at Lee? Seems every machinist in Red Deer works there

[john316]

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James, I think you read too much from my simplistic answer.

 

The question was, as I saw it, are the verticles simpler to set-up.

 

I think the verticals are simpler, but if I was going to buy a machine it would be a horizontal. They are much more versatile and I like the possibilities for modular tooling that they offer.

 

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[Greg_J]

I know you Randy, I use to work at Thomas Skinner in Edmonton, I came to your old shop to help with the install of that big Okuma mill, I was there with Don. I talked to you breifly at the Caledonian open house. Do you remember who I am?

Greg

[mold100]

Very little horizontal exp here, the only thing i ever done with them is some contract programming a few years ago, worked out, I would buy a horzontal before a vert if not for cost differance. Now i have a question and could be because they are built better but here goes:

 

I have heard from Numerous peple that have both in facitlity that 1st anything you can run in a vert you can run faster in a horizontal, okay i can buy that, just for simple chip evacuation and tend to be a lil higher end. Secondly anytool runs more rigid in a horizontal, face mills with 6 and 8 in extensions have less chatter and vibration, is this true for most of you? I see some pretty incedible insertable tool length used in horiz boring mills, true or false?

[Programinator]

ive been running verticals for years and i cant wait to get a horizontal to see what its all about. It doesnt seem like its that much more complex

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

I dunno, john316, I think HMC's are just as easy to set up, maybe even easier since most HMC's have "handy's".

 

JM2C

[iowajim62]

Lotsa horizontal time here. Operators shouldn't be the deciding factor for vertical or horizontal machine purchases. They run what I setup unless they are really good setup guys then I let them do the setups and prove outs. The problem with really good setup guys is they get bored with horizontals that run production and don't wanna be stuck running them after the setup is complete. Back to the subject, Horizontals can be made to be just as fast to setup as a Vertical if you preplan your workholding/fixturing and stay with mostly dedicated tools in the magazine.

jm2c

quote:

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horizontals are not intimidating

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nope they're moneymakers if used/run correctly,especially lights-out my favorite way to make money is while sleeping

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

quote:

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...If you have repeat work one horizontal=4 vertical machines...

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Unless you have a 6 or 8 sided tombstone... Then you get 6 or 8

[Guest]

and if you employ multiple tombstones and probes and tool setters your "set up time" can virtually disappear and become part of the previous parts runtime.

 

Though James with those crappy graphics I don't know how we get anything done

 

[Justin Beebe at Folsom Tool]

We have four 4-axis verticals and two horizontals. I like the horizontals because of the chip evacuation. Once you press start you can forget about the part until it's done. With our verticals we need to occasionally go over and blow out chips. We use pre-setters to set tools for the horizontals and leave certain tools in the machine all the time that never need to be set. So set up time is fast. If I had my choice I would go with all horizontals and one or two verticals.

[BrianP.]

I have run both horizontal and vertical and one horizontal/vertical where the head rotated.Both have their advantages. It really depends on the type of work that you get in house. Some is better suited for one more than the other. As far as difficulty I think they are a wash. Only a little different thought process.