Kia vs Haas

[Programinator]

Just wanted to get thoughts on these 2 machines

 

Haas VF3

 

Kia VX500

 

If they both come with the same options and were priced around the same what would be your choice?

[Mike Whitten CAD/CAM Contractors]

I am not sure of the answer as there are many things to consider. I would check out the options on the control. The Kia may have the Fanuc control with look-ahead and optional high-speed functions. This would be a huge deal to me. Kia'a are pretty popular on the West coast here. I know of many shops that love them. I would think they have to beat a Haas. A Haas is OK but most likely slower than the Kia.

[TR Mfg.]

I would lean to the Kia because of the all Fanuc electronics unless you are planning on doing probing. From what I have seen the Haas probing routines are more user friendly.

[Programinator]

quote:

---

The Kia may have the Fanuc control with look-ahead and optional high-speed functions.

---

Yes the kia does have fanuc control but the haas also has the highspeed option with look ahead.

 

Is it true with th fanuc that you have to turn that option on and off in th gcode? I know with the Haas control you dont.

 

Ive been working with Haas for a while now and have never had any exposure to the Kia. Guess im looing for which machine is overall the better choice.

[heavychevy2155]

The Mori Dura line might be in reach if you have the Haas and Kia optioned out pretty good. Mazak would be another in reach also. If you already have haas machines the VF3 would be a good choice. Your operators already know the control, you already have a post for the haas, just things to look at.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

I've done some performance testing on the Kia VX machines with a 0i controls vs. a FANUC Robodrill with a 31i control. The differences were can you say STAGGERING.

 

quote:

---

We ran some test cuts on a customer-supplied program in a Kia VX650 with

standard control option package (FANUC Oi-MC with AI-APC).

Kia Cycle time was 1:37:09. (One hour 37 minutes 9 seconds)

We ran the same customer supplied program on a Fanuc Robodrill T21i

with standard control option package (FANUC 31i-M with AI-NANO I).

FANUC cycle time was 30:08. (30 minutes 8 seconds)

---

FWIW, you're probably going to get better performance from the HAAS.

[htm01]

have you looked at the Haas VM's? they have a tighter leadscrew

[heavychevy2155]

http://www.machinetools.com/mt/machines/in...601427872726540 Something like this would be real nice.

[Chris Rizzo]

yeah those dura centers are a great value for a nice machine. i'd recommend the mapps III vs. the crapps II.

Right James?

[Guest]

quote:

---

Kia vs Haas

---

Can I take the pink slip instead?

 

[Colin Gilchrist]

Programinator,

 

You can also enable/disable the High Speed Look ahead on a Haas, and also change the corner rounding radius parameter. I think the code is G187 with an "E" value. Something like that, but it is available for sure. I think it comes with one of their standard option packages. Don't skimp if you decided to go with the Haas, get the options package. Also, get through spindle coolant if you can. It takes more maintenance, but is highly worth it.

 

Most forum members here have an opinion about Haas, either good or bad. Personally I like Haas machines. I've ran quite a few of them over the years and have made some very trick parts on them. Very user friendly and accurate enough for a ton of the work out there. You aren't going to get a rock solid, absolutely repeatable machine, like a Mori, Makino, Okuma.

 

JM2¢,

[J Coulston]

We have a Dura5100 has been a great machine. We were looking to add a second one but bought a CMM instead. Here's a quote from December for a new DuraVertical 5100.

 

DuraVertical 5100 MORI SEIKI CNC Vertical Machining Center

With MSX-701 MAPPS Control

 

Standard Features include the following:

 

• CT#40 Spindle Taper

• 10,000 RPM Spindle

• 53.1” x 23.6” Table Surface

• 41.3” x 20.9” x 20.1” Travels

• 1,417.3 IPM Rapid Traverse Rates X, & Y

• 787.4 IPM Rapid Traverse Rates Z

• 20/17.3/15 Horsepower Spindle Motor

• Spindle Cooler and Oil-Air Lubrication System

• Coolant System, Complete Covers

• 30 Tool ATC

• 1.3 Second Tool Change Time (tool to tool)

• 4.0 Seconds Chip to Chip

 

 

DuraVertical Standard Machine Base Price $ 119,900

 

 

CBR Page 2

 

 

DuraVertical 5100 Standard Machine Base Price $ 119,900

 

Machine Options: Installed on STOCK machine

 

• Thru Spindle Coolant Interface (DIN Style) $ 4,500

• High Speed Skip Function $ Included

• Touch Tool Setter, Table Mounted $ 3,500

• Chip Conveyor $ 6,100

Total Investment Required $ 134,000

[Greg Williams]

Is there a third Choice?

[YoDoug®]

We have 2 KIA VX 500's and 2 HAAS VF series. They each have their good and bad points.

 

As for the high speed look ahead, HAAS IS A JOKE. The OiFanuc in the KIA will run circles around the HAAS. We take code from the KIA's and we have to slow it down or the HAAS get jerky starving for code because it can't process fast enough.

 

The KIA's do better in hard materials than the HAAS does.

 

For service HAAS has KIA beat from my experience when it comes to parts availability. We have had times waiting for up to a week for parts to come from Korea for the KIa.

 

The HAAS has a way more friendly control for the operator, but I personally prefer Fanuc controls.

 

The other thing about HAAS is they can't do SH!$ without buying a ton of options that many Fanuc controls come with standard or can be unlocked way cheaper than the HAAS. HAAS dangles a nice low sticker price in front of your fac to get you but then you get the machine and realize you need M19, macro, high speed, rigid tap, etc. Then you spend another $10,000 grand to get these options and your low cost machine is now a not so low cost POS.

 

I can say I would be really reluctant to buy another HAAS, EVER. Maybe I would buy one just to make my yo-yos.

 

I would most likely choose the KIA.

[Dave.L]

About 4 years ago we looked at HAAS. We ended up getting another Mazak Nexus. When I added up the price of the HAAS and all the options it took to get it to match the standard Mazak, the price was actually more. We did some test cuts and sorry, but it's a joke compared to Mazak. To be honest, I can't understand how they sell machines. Even the chip conveyor requires you to have a special bucket instead of a 55 gallon drum.

 

We now run our Mazak's 95% g-code via Mastercam. (About 5% we use Mazatrol.) Very Fanuc based and it works well. The only issue I have is doing manual workoffsets, you need to be very carefull about calling up tool lg offsets, workoffsets, and then not hitting "reset" and whipping them all out. Not sure how other machines handle this, but I don't like how they handle it (from a pure Fanuc point of view).

 

With that said, everyone will have different experiences and your reseller can make a big difference too. Good machine + good reseller = good system. Great machine + bad reseller = :-(

[#Rekd™]

Hi,

 

Check out Daewoo/ Doosan.

 

John

[Joe788]

Dave, can you elaborate more on what you mean by the manual tool offsets/work offsets?

 

If you mean the machine keeps resetting to G54 when you hit reset, there is a parameter to make it stop doing that.

 

There also might be a parameter to keep it from canceling the H offset on a reset, but I'm not positive.

[Dave.L]

Hi Joe,

 

Yes you are correct, there is a parameter that “won’t change work offset during reset” and we have that set so that “reset” does not clear or change the current work offset. However, the H offset will always get cleared when pressing reset since G49 is modal (modal at reset). My Mazak reseller looked into this and he reported that there is no parameter to change that. (I looked long and hard too)

 

So, here are issues:

 

You call up a tool and you get the tool into the spindle (no H offset) and that’s OK.

Next, you need to call the H offset: G43 H? The problem here is that you need to first move the Z axis down at least the amount of the tool length (H) offset because when you execute the G43, it’s under G1 or G0 and instead of the display/position simply updating, the Z axis moves up the amount of the H offset. If you are at the Z return position, it can’t go any higher and you get a soft alarm which requires “reset” and needless to say, undoes everything you have just done.

 

Also, when you make work offset changes you need to press “reset” or G54 (or what ever offset you are using) to update the position display. These issues are totally annoying and if anyone knows a parameter to fix it – please let me know. Note: this happens only when using “Tool Offset” (fanuc style) not “Tool Data” Mazatrol style. I know the difference between the 2 and we use “tool offset” for many good reasons.

 

We have done some pretty slick modular vises/ fixturing setups that no longer require us to edge find positions, so, this issue is far less painful then it once was.

[Programinator]

We are a small shop with limited funds. We like haas and want to stick with with them because that's what the other machines we have are. Problem is KIA is offering a real good deal. If haas can match I think we will go with them even though the KIA may be the over all better machine

[Joe788]

Dave, one thing you can do to update the position display after a change without hitting reset, is go into MDI (you can still be in cycle, as long as you're not in feed hold), and just enter "G54" or whichever offset you're using, and hit cycle start.

 

I'm interested in hearing your reasons for using the strictly Fanuc style tool offsets. I have it set to use Mazatrol Tool Data for the tool type and gage length, and Tool Offset page for the wear values for length and diameter. Seems to be a great mix of the two types, with the bonus that calling the wrong H value will still load the correct tool length, it will just use the wear value from whichever incorrect H you called.

 

There is a way to set up the machine so that there's no G43 or H calls AT ALL, but I don't want anything to do with that.

[Dave.L]

Joe,

 

Yes, I am aware that recalling the workoffset updates the screen, and that's what we do, but I don't think we should need to. We use tool offset since many times we use different H & D offsets for the same tool based on cutting conditions and I think that's why fanuc designed it that way, and I love it - it works great. In addition, we don't want to lock in to a particular machine, but we do want to lock into the fanuc method.

 

We have a Mori NL1500SY (a turning center) and we don't have these issues. A tool offset is active until you call another or cancel it. Also, if you change a workoffset the postion updates without recalling the offset (maybe we need to hit reset, but if we do, it does not kill all else done).

 

-Dave

[Cad-Camr]

A Haas is a Haas. A good machine for its class. We have 7 super Vf-2's (30 HP). They run 3 shifts 7 days a week. 90 percent of the time they run at 12,000 RPM. They can crank out production parts day in and day out. Not great for steel or other heavy work. If you have a little extra $, The Mori Dura would be better.

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

I'd put THIS up against a Kia or Dura Center ANY day.

[Programinator]

That Toyoda looks nice....What kind of control is on that thing?

[Bob W.]

James,

 

I am really trying to have Haas pick up my VM3 right now. Since the machine was new in November I have had 10+ service calls on it ranging from spindle replacement, ball screw misalignment, excessive Z-axis thermal growth, bad mocon boards, power failure detection module failure, etc...

 

As a replacement I am considering the Toyoda, Kia, or Matsura. The Matsura would be a real stretch and I am leaning toward the Toyoda. Any thoughts on the Toyodas regarding strengths and weaknesses? How much faster would the FV1050S be than the FV1165? Difference in cost?

 

I have had enough of Haas and I am trying to move on...