Old bugs back again. Thanks alot CNC!

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

There's nothing I'm aware of that would prevent anyone from developing a C-Hook to do whatever they wanted to do. Volumill included. They could develop and maintain it WITHOUT CNC's blessing if the demand was there. If there's only a handful of users though, it may not be worth their while.

[mayday]

If I was in the Ivory Tower, I would hang the help wanted sign out. With 3rd party developers out there making an add on product BETTER than the source product, I would want them working for me. If you want and claim the be #1, It's high time to prove it. Seems all the attention is going into HSS paths. The think they are failing at it (to an extent) and at the same time disreguarding the rest of the software. Mill/ Turn as we all know is what is needed. We just ordered 3 more Integrexes (that gives us 9 of em). They are in high demand and hard to get a hold of but multifunction machines is what the market is driving.

[Guest]

They are in high demand and hard to get a hold of but multifunction machines is what the market is driving.

 

Agreed Wes, there are a TON of these machines being sold on a yearly basis now.

 

3 axis CNC Milling machines are quickly being relegated to glorified drill presses, a la, the Bridgeports of their day.

[neurosis]

There's nothing I'm aware of that would prevent anyone from developing a C-Hook to do whatever they wanted to do. Volumill included. They could develop and maintain it WITHOUT CNC's blessing if the demand was there. If there's only a handful of users though, it may not be worth their while.

 

 

That is exactly right.

 

Mastercam is a huge investment and so is the yearly maintenance. As much as those of us that use volumill love it, I dont think that we are a very large crowd (in Mastercam I should add). With the Dynamic tool paths coming out it will be harder to convince people to fork out $$$ for a plugin that in the customers eyes, does the same as what we have in opti/dynamic tool paths. Even though those of us that do use it know that there is a big difference in both strategy and usability. How many seats of Volumill maintenance would it take to pay for one seat of Mastercam? And how many seats of Volumill maintenance would it take to carry Mastercams maintenance charge? How many NEW seats of Volumill do you think that they will be able to convince people to buy now that Mastercam has their Dynamic tool paths?

 

Volumill offered us their universal plugin at no charge if we continued to pay maintenance so you could say that this is also partially OUR fault for turning that offer down. This was as much of a business decision for us and not paying for a seat of Mastercam is for them. Trying to organize code using an external code generator just takes too much time and effort for us to think that it is worth the trouble. What I will say, is that even though we have these dynamic/opti tool paths in Mastercam, we would not have any problem paying maintenance for the Volumill C-hook had they continued developing it.

 

I blame CNC because it wasnt hurting them in the least to continue their partnership with Volumill. Volumill was not their competitor and in fact, was developing a product that made Mastercam an even BETTER product as I am sure that anyone that uses Volumill will attest to. Not only that, but the excuse that CNC gave was a bunch of B.S. I would have respected them more had they come out and just told the truth on the matter. Its insulting to hear them say that WE THE CUSTOMER ARE GOING TO BE CONFUSED DO TO THE SIMILARITY OF THE PATHS. They may has well have come out and said "Our customers are a bunch of morons that dont know what they are investing their time and money on."

[Guest]

Neurosis you're spot on

 

If there was a market for it, there would be development

 

While they may offer a decent product, the market as a whole, doesn't want it.

 

The decision from CNC to keep it, makes no sense, especially as they continue to add, develop and hone their own paths.

I would bet there aren't 100 Mastercam Volumill customers.

 

I have seen many little used chooks go by the wayside.

 

That's one of the reasons resellers generally avoid such fringe products, the chook goes away for whatever reason and you end up with an angry Mastercam customer through nothing you've done.

[neurosis]

Neurosis you're spot on

 

If there was a market for it, there would be development

 

While they may offer a decent product, the market as a whole, doesn't want it.

 

The decision from CNC to keep it, makes no sense, especially as they continue to add, develop and hone their own paths.

I would bet there aren't 100 Mastercam Volumill customers.

 

I have seen many little used chooks go by the wayside.

 

That's one of the reasons resellers generally avoid such fringe products, the chook goes away for whatever reason and you end up with an angry Mastercam customer through nothing you've done.

 

 

Yes J, I agree with you.

 

As I added above. It wasnt hurting CNC in the least to continue their partnership with Volumill. What was CNC losing by allowing it to continue? Had they continued their partnership and allowed Volumill to continue development under it, then if we are right in our thinking, it would have eventually fizzled out on its own and we wouldnt be looking cross eyed at CNC right? Or on the other hand, maybe it would not have and as a customer, we would have been given a choice to continue to use Volumill or decided on our own to let it go.

 

Volumill made Mastercam a better product, not worse. What used to be a nice addition to Mastercam is now a competitor. Having used both products and seeing how fast Volumill is progressing, I would not want them as my competitor if I were CNC. They have been at least a year ahead of CNC's development of their Dynamic paths.

[Guest]

What was CNC losing by allowing it to continue?

 

Conversely, what were they gaining?

 

It is stepping on their own offerings.

 

Volumill is no direct competitor, not unless they are offering a full CAM system for sale. AFAIK, they're only offering machining strategies.

 

Again though, if the market for them was there, they would invest in their own development. That is generally how companies do it, they invest in their own development, Volumill, while coming up with strategies, wants a free ride into the software.

 

No one stops them but themselves.

 

Because of the situation, you really can go back and forth and solve nothing.

 

The question for Volumill is simple. Is the market there for their product?

 

The answer seems to be a simple, no.

[neurosis]

What was CNC gaining? In my opinion It made Mastercam a better product. I didnt see that Volumill was stepping on CNC's offerings any more than Cimco's adaptive clearing. In fact, it enhanced them by adding different, and in some cases, better strategies. I trusted Volumills paths enough to generate code and walk away from the machine. I cant say that about optirough/optirest. It was much easier to go from part to code using Volumill over any of the dynamic/opti paths so it was a time saver which = $$$$. Oh wait, that is all what we as a customer were gaining. Sh!t, Im sorry. This isnt about the customers is it?

 

 

While they may not be a direct competitor, things being what they are, they are now making CNC's direct competitors a better product rather than CNC. If we saw Powermill on Celeritives list of partners we would probably already be gone from Mastercam.

 

Volumill, while coming up with strategies, wants a free ride into the software.

 

There is no denying that.

 

 

 

 

Conversely, what were they gaining?

 

It is stepping on their own offerings.

 

Volumill is no direct competitor, not unless they are offering a full CAM system for sale. AFAIK, they're only offering machining strategies.

 

Again though, if the market for them was there, they would invest in their own development. That is generally how companies do it, they invest in their own development, Volumill, while coming up with strategies, wants a free ride into the software.

 

No one stops them but themselves.

 

Because of the situation, you really can go back and forth and solve nothing.

 

The question for Volumill is simple. Is the market there for their product?

 

The answer seems to be a simple, no.

[Guest]

I think we both agree on the issue's.

 

Where we diverge is who's responsibility it is to bring you the product.

 

You feel it's "mainly" on CNC, I feel it's "mainly" the responsibility of Celeriltive(sp?)

[gcode]

If we saw Powermill on Celeritives list of partners we would probably already be gone from Mastercam.

 

 

that's a gutsy play... if Volumill were to fold, they'd probably sell out to just one of the companies who now

 

include them as an add-on.. The new owners would cut all the other Volumill customers off.. and you'd own 2 packages

 

the used to include Volumill.

[gcode]

a further though ...

while they may not fold.. at some point, the guys are going to realize they are never going to get

rich selling Volumill especially since Smurfcam is getting a piece of every sale they make.

If one of the big boys makes them a fat buyout offer, they'll take the money and run.

[MotorCityMinion]

Perhaps the market for Volumill is limited as a whole, and certainly redundant in MC, but a few other CAM packages are getting involved with it at the moment. I don't have NX experience but they partnered up with them ? You would have thought that they would have been on this stuff a long time ago. I was kind of disappointed when I saw that.

[gcode]

you have a point.. if someone is partnering with Volumill, it is an admission that they do not have

 

similar toolpaths ...and what better way to get a jump on the competion than for NX or Catia or Hypermill to

 

buy Volumill out and cut all the competion out of the dynamic milling loop ?

 

You know the Volumill guys are not getting rich with their small user base and paying royalties to Smurfcam.

 

A nice buyout offer would be very hard to turn down..

[neurosis]

I think we both agree on the issue's.

 

Where we diverge is who's responsibility it is to bring you the product.

 

You feel it's "mainly" on CNC, I feel it's "mainly" the responsibility of Celeriltive(sp?)

 

 

Thats not exactly correct.

 

I only feel that it is CNC's responsibility to provide us with something that is at minimum, equal to what they took away. Otherwise, why not just leave things the way that they are since it is not costing them anything to do so? My opinion would be very different had CNC been able to replace Volumill laterally with their offerings, but as things stand now, we have taken a minimum of one step back if not two. Not only that, but we lost our initial investment. It would also made more sense if they had also dropped support for Adaptive Clearing for the same reason.

 

And again, Volumill does still bring a universal product. It was our choice to either use it or not. We chose not to.

 

You'll have to excuse me. I am still a little bitter.

 

 

I do understand the points that you are making J and respect what you are saying.

 

Edit:

 

I want to change what ive said here. I do not feel that it is CNC's responsibility to do anything that they do not want to. However, it would have shown their concern and support for their customers. Current customers and not future.

 

that's a gutsy play... if Volumill were to fold, they'd probably sell out to just one of the companies who now

 

include them as an add-on.. The new owners would cut all the other Volumill customers off.. and you'd own 2 packages

 

the used to include Volumill.

 

 

G, WE have considered powermill as a mastercam replacement regardless of Volumill just due to Mastercams neglect where bugs are concerned. Not bugs that show up in the new development which is expected, but the bugs that have been around since X2 that never seem to get attention due to priority? You would not see me making this claim about BobCad or GibbsCam or any other product that we would not consider using regardless of Volumill.

 

I dont think that we would regret the move to Powermill one bit. Not only that, but I would be willing to bet that Celerative would work out a deal with us to pick up our back maintenance if we moved to another product that they partnered with. That is hypothetical and speculative of course but Celerative has been an outstanding company to work with. Probably one of the best that I have dealt with in the Cam industry.

[Guest SAIPEM]

Let's not forget Lathe

http://www.emastercam.com/board/index.php?showtopic=65286&view=findpost&p=740281

[Mic]

If we saw Powermill on Celeritives list of partners we would probably already be gone from Mastercam.

 

That will not happen. Powermill is very close to release their own.

[Mic]

It would also made more sense if they had also dropped support for Adaptive Clearing for the same reason.

 

CNC din't drop support for Volumill. They just cancelled the free mastercam seat Volumill had in order to develop their c-hook. Volumill could have continued development if they just purchased their own seat of mastercam. I guess volumill calculated that this seat would cost more than what they could earn on selling new volumill c-hooks.

 

Adaptive clearing is being developed by Cimco who is a mastercam reseller. They have all they need in order to continue developing their c-hook.

[neurosis]

CNC din't drop support for Volumill.

 

 

Sorry, I should have said, "Discontinued their partnership".

[Guest CNC Apps Guy 1]

...I only feel that it is CNC's responsibility to provide us with something that is at minimum, equal to what they took away...

CNC took away Volumill's free ride. Volumill could have chosen to devlop it on thier own like other C-Hook writers have done and continue to do.

 

It's OK to be bitter, heck... ALL of us MUlti-Tasking Lathe guys are bitter. ... but I think you're unleashing your rage against the wrong entity. Your rage should be against Celeritive for the Volumill issue.

 

JMHO.

[MIL-TFP-41]

If what I have been reading bout Volumill is true (won't pay for a seat of mastercam) then this whole deal is their loss. To be honest...when volumill first came out I really questioned their business model (I believe it was a subscription based service at first) To read their site it seemed that it was CNC Software's decision to no longer support Volumill....Now the truth comes out and it reality Volumill dropped Mastercam cuz they choose not to buy 1 seat of Mastercam for development. Thanks for the enlightment.

[neurosis]

If what I have been reading bout Volumill is true (won't pay for a seat of mastercam) then this whole deal is their loss. To be honest...when volumill first came out I really questioned their business model (I believe it was a subscription based service at first) To read their site it seemed that it was CNC Software's decision to no longer support Volumill....Now the truth comes out and it reality Volumill dropped Mastercam cuz they choose not to buy 1 seat of Mastercam for development. Thanks for the enlightment.

 

 

You are right about one thing. It was Celeritives decision NOT to purchase a seat of Mastercam. It was CNC's decision to end the partnership with Celerative. Celeritive started developing their C-hook under a certain set of circumstances and those circumstances changed when CNC ended the partnership for what ever reason.

 

I have ZERO ill feelings toward Celeritive. I have less toward CNC knowing more about Cimco.

 

It makes a little more sense to me now about why CNC did not drop Cimco's offering. I was not aware that Cimco was a Mastercam reseller.

 

I agree with Wes's point of view.

 

If I was in the Ivory Tower, I would hang the help wanted sign out. With 3rd party developers out there making an add on product BETTER than the source product, I would want them working for me. If you want and claim the be #1, It's high time to prove it. Seems all the attention is going into HSS paths. The think they are failing at it (to an extent) and at the same time disreguarding the rest of the software.

 

 

I have a feeling that there was something to CNC's decision to end their partnership with Celeritive that goes much deeper than believing that they are "confusing their customers".

[Aeroguy]

If Powermill can save me an hour per day in programming or machine time (single shift) over Mastercam is would equate to around $20k of additional annual income.

 

Believe me buddy, it will save you alot more than 1 single hour a day once you get used to it.

[Aeroguy]

Overall the 2D toolpaths are far more reliable than the 3D HST.

 

 

Totally agree, for simple 2D stuff Mastercam rocks, but when it comes to anything approching 3D and even most 5 axis stuff, it can't hold a candle to most other other packages available.

[Jroc85]

Oh. Here we go.

[Dtm]

Totally agree, for simple 2D stuff Mastercam rocks, but when it comes to anything approching 3D and even most 5 axis stuff, it can't hold a candle to most other other packages available.

 

I couldn't agree more